06 Starting Issue

[Stevek83]

evening, I have had a starting problem with my grand voyager since I bought it a year ago that has know come to a head. I have had a very random starting problem, where sometimes you get in and it would fire up straight away, but sometimes it would just crank over, I took the key out and started again till eventually it started. It was very random in terms of when it used to do it, it could go minutes, hours or a day with out a problem or it could do it all the time. I have changed the battery to a fancy gel one, two starter motors, crank and cam shaft sensors, new fuel filter and primer part on top. ( when this was changed it was perfect for a week, then all of a sudden back to normal.) since then priming the fuel guaranteed a start. Now nothing works it just cranks and cranks. There is one of the injector tops that's a bit damp and discoloured but when running the car runs perfect. Can anyone advise and help me I am loosing the will with this car I have never loved and hated a car so much at the same time. Tia

[bignev]

Hi there,

Only a far out shot, but is the key the original?

I've had a similar problem but not on my GV, it was a Renault and the transponder had moved in the key, so the reader ring around the ignition didn't always see it.

It would crank over like yours, but no ignition.

I'm sure the original Chrysler keys won't let that happen though.

Does the red secuirity light on the dash go out confirming it's happy with the key?

Cheers

Nev

[tomada3]

could it be engine earth strap maybe its loose 

[sundowners]

Hi

I have had the same starting issues with our G Voyager for 3 1/2 years (2.8 diesel)--------I have found that-----turn on the key------when light check mode has finished--turn key off------------watch rev counter or speedo needles--when they drop onto stops -- crank------it usually starts within 2-3 seconds-----------BUT I only have a few seconds to crank as the battery  will quickly die----(it is on it's second new one since I have had it)

I would love to fit a proper sized battery but we have such a small space to put one-------what battery have others found to do the best job??-----price is (virtually) no issue

Nigel

[QinteQ]

- the Grand Voyager CRD's are a pig for starting in the cold UK

- all batteries really have a performance life of only 3 years

- the best UK straight swap in a Voyager is the Optima 4.2 at about £160 !

- the best we can do for cold starting is a - CCA of 95+ which inevitably comes with an Ah of 95

- I did consider the Odyssey 1500 but it was too salty at £350

- I bought a big S6 BOSCH and air sawed 4 chunks from the battery tray etc to fit it

- the BOSCH I fitted 3 years ago has a starting power of 3,500 watts this has been sufficient even for vehicles with an extreme cycle load since then

 

What we really need seems does not / can never exist, because on a short run the lower the Ah the better. The lower Ah of say 45 / 55 means the battery can [if the alternator can output it] soak up more charge in a shorter period. A fully charged top notch battery outside your house in a UK summer - start the car - no load at all on the charging system, everything turned off - put you headlights, radio, and blower on an at 2000RPM your alternator output will jump from 10+ to 30+ amps. So, in a UK winter, those like me with infrequent short runs really need a CCA of 95+ with an [impossible combination of] Ah of 65.

 

The BTS determines battery temp in order to control the charge rate via the PCM. Put simply colder = high charge, and warmer = lower charge. The 5 volts reduces resistance in ohms value as the temp goes up. Simply moving the sensor or putting a £1 computer 12v 'chipset' mini-fan on it will have the effect of maintaining the highest allowable amp input value. My / our problem as stated is short infrequent trips are not enough to keep the battery fully charged, this hard starting or a no-start condition causes chronic undercharging and a shortening via sulphated plates, low voltage as we all know can play havoc with onboard electronics, and the fuel injection and ignition systems. I always understood there were 2 general rules :

 

- (1) the alternator output should be a minimum of 1/4 of the battery aH, for continuous short runs however - charging the alternator output would need to be 150%[ish] of maximum load

 

- (2) the 1 to 25 ratio [1 horsepower energy from the engine to make 25 peak alternator amps energy]

 

This old Yorkshire-man's view on deep cycle wet-flooded needs to be related to newer tech. New tech such as AGM's and spirals can 'soak up' to 40% their available capacities rather than the 25% of the older tech. And there we have the nub of it .. .. this CRD car designed for spark not compression has a diesel engine with a petrol standard battery which to me appears to be not fit for purpose in that first place, I question whether the alternator and cabling [safety] was upgraded for a diesel spec, subsequent advances in tech leading to recommendations for spiral and AGM fall down because the alternator output now no longer reflects the optimal ratio between alternator and battery capacity. To truly benefit from an AGM or Spiral the alternator output needs to be increased to facilitate the 40% that these battery types are capable of, instead we continue blindly with an alternator output incapable of charging a modern battery unless the car is run daily and for a long run.

 

So in my case an S6 and in your case a RedTop.

[sundowners]

Hi

Thanks for that concise reply-------I did fit A PAIR of red-tops to my Dodge Ram Diesel and felt they were fantastic at their job (it is now sold)--but thought that one would not give enough AH for bad starting----loads of CCA though for a quick burst like the 5.9 Cummins in the Ram---it only ever turned over for a second or two to start.--------------------Maybe thats what this motor would benefit from --a massive CCA to turn it quicker ???.(and more power for the electrics at the same time)

I have run loads of Diesels over the years but never had one that starts as badly as this one---I had a VM 2.5 in a Rover and it was superb.---Is it the 2.8 motor or what Chrysler have done to it thats the problem???.

I might get a red-top for it--------do you think the Odyssey is any better to justify that price difference??

Nigel.

Edited November 9, 2015 by sundowners

[QinteQ]

.1.a. Well you need to decide first whether you want to dismantle and cut parts of both the new battery and the cars battery tray, or just put in a known to fit new battery.

 

.2. Then there are many other issues you might take into account, for example :

 

- there are 6 different RedTops ranging from the 25 that will give you 720CCA's @ °F all the way to the 34/78 that will give you 800CCA's @ °F

- never choose to put your REG or car type into any site, it will sell you the exact useless performing battery you already have

- is it fuel pressure / air in / IOD excess / parasympathetic draw / bad wiring / the notorious radio bodge / and not weak battery - have you eliminated these ?

- etc

 

If you open the bonnet and the plunger on the hand primer is rock hard then you can assume [leak test if needed later] you have enough fuel pressure. I've come across several that have slack fuel filters and / or plastic water traps as a result of bad servicing standards allowing air in - check they are tight. IOS should be 0.015 to 0.025 ampere with the IGN switch off, running the clock & radio which are always-on can draw up to  0.025 which is why Chrysler tell you to pull the stepped IOD fuse if you are away from it for 10 days or more. Lifestyle is critical you could have a brand new fork lift battery and still won't start if you only drive it 15 minutes each way now and then per week. My battery reads a steady 14.1v charge in the winter, two 15 minute periods @ 13.2V is 2 x 15 minute @ 21Ah, compared to two 15 minute periods @ 14.4V is 2 x 15 minute @ 60Ah, is an improvement  of  about  300%, so you see its worth deciding what you can check & eliminate first.I changed my big Bosch for a 4 year old scrap 80/800 Varta F21 AGM which is what BMW fit as their own BMW 7 series brand [they are not - they are Varta manufactured and are Length (MM) Top 315 Width (MM) Top 175 Height (MM) inc Terminals 190] and I'm certainly confident it fits in my car and has already perform in one winter - Its important to tell you I use the car once a week only on x2 15 minute trips each way. Best of luck Nigel.

 

.

 

[sundowners]

I agree with everything you say !!!!-----------first thing is this starting issue-----I realise that many checks have to be made to check fuel pressure and soo many things--one I feel I need to do is check the stop solenoid- (I wonder if it is sticking)---but whether it stands for a week or an hour doesn't seem to make any difference----if it can crank long enough it will eventually start-------following the procedure I mentioned before it USUALLY starts within 5 seconds or so--------but if I have to crank four or so times --the battery is gone.------Most of our runs are daytime of at least 20ish miles.

We leave it standing for 3 months at a time quite often-----that is an issue------but the next time it will be linked into a 150w solar panel system----so that will help the health of the battery.

I will get a GOOD battery for it and work from there-----I don't want to chop the carrier about, so it will be something like an Optima------I read some rather poor reports on the odyssey, I can't decide if I am better off with red/yellow or blue Optima-- I know the red is correct for a 'starter' battery but if it gets run quite low it seems that a Y or blue would last longer???????????-------I want the most powerful one that will fit in the carrier----------------------the two that I have put on it had good stats but somehow I don't have faith in the figures----a lot cheaper than Optima.

I have considered fitting a second battery behind the passenger seat in the seats well------I just don't fancy the cable run!!

What do you reckon is best for me at the moment ????

Nigel

[QinteQ]

The 1st check is to put a good fully charged and off the charger for 2 hours battery on, that battery needs to be close to 80/800 ish and see what happens, I make the following obs :

 

Most of our runs are daytime of at least 20ish miles

 

Means nothing, 20 miles per day every day means about 15 to 20 minutes of charge rate, not nearly sufficient to replace the start amps cost 

150w solar panel system

 

I tried a Maplins 13W charger in the window all year and it gives a quoted 743mA, don't believe it - I made it closer to 200mA on the brightest stonking summer day. Convert your 150W into amps then divide it by four over a whole years facing the sun then you might have some idea of the real value - it - the solar is however a good idea for those who can not connect a 5 or 7 stage conditioner changer for an 80Ah need.

I read some rather poor reports on the odyssey

 

When the world was proclaiming the new Jesus battery, I was already warning people off them. Nevertheless it is a straight swap size for those who don't want to make a mod on the battery tray / FCM / shroud and cables.

red/yellow or blue Optima

 

This is not complicated they are totally different animals, they are all AGM but the red is the one you want and is for a high enough for long enough belt to start an engine, blue is marine multi and yellow is just the size of the stud as in the blue has a 5/16ths and the yellow a 3/8ths stud. The marine is designed for slow release - running lights radio converters etc and the red is for CCA giving it all now to start a car.

[Sheen1]

Hi there many long replys. Mine did that, if you have AA BRC then your car has two underlying faults.

 

Glow Plug Relay

One or More Injectors.

 

They are both covered by BRC.

Cheers.

[Treacle]

What type of bosch s6 battery do people recommend? See link; http://www.europeanbatterysupplies.co.uk/index.php/car-batteries/bosch-car-batteries/bosch-agm-s6-car-batteries.html

 

The story.....

Got fobbed off by the garage that sold me the car eventually got another, that got destroyed last winter... Unipart went bust so out pocket with their battery!

 

Been using a varta 096 reverse post only one failure with it, so would really like a spec for Bosch, as six year warranty id s lot better than 12 months because of what make the car is!!!!

 

Will happily chop up a battery tray to avoid this farce... Too busy for BS !

[QinteQ]

Chonking the battery tray was no biggie I'll find some pics over the next few days and post a walkthrough. On battery's the spiral red tops are a no mod needed good replacement, I prefer big 80/800 battery's and having already been caught out with a crap brand new S6 so I've revised my opinion I'd now go for a BLUE Varta F18 which is the same battery as the Merc AMG and the big BMW's. Posts & other physical characteristics here. Battery makers hide the manufacture dates from everyone and motorist shops and e-tailers often have them in stock for two winters. The BMW F18 I boughty has the date code reassuringly stamped on both posts.

 

[QinteQ]

Apologies to Martyn, the reply intended for this # went to this one by mistake. - Now moved here !

 

Lots of opinionated opinion and two specifics - battery fits & the 'buttonMOD'. All Chrysler fused battery positive voltage is supplied to almost everything through the analogue Inte-grated Power Module [iPM] before it goes to the critical digital FCM [Front Control Module]. That fusebox is not what it appears to be but is several 'layered' PCB's with pins stcking up through one or more PCB's into what you call the fusebox, the amount of potential for shorted, verdigreased, cancered wiring and bad connections suggest that the 'hinged book' underside of the IPM should always be checked.

Image

 

Image

 

On CCA a simplistic and non techie answer - CCA is how much it your battery can supply in a short burst to start your car - aH is the total time it can supply it for until its dead. There are plenty of UK threads on the subject in this forum, different people have different outcomes, opinions and lifestyles but all agree that a good battery in good nick is an absolute in the UK. Batteries have an amazingly short lifespan, stick an undersized battery on an oversized job and it will shorten its lifespan correspondingly but not in a linear way in other words the three year expected lifespan can come down to one year in just six months. "It takes a lot longer to fully charge a modern car battery than many people realise – typically 240 miles of driving with no load or eight hours of continuous driving - not as millions claim Oh! about 15 minutesd mate ! - which can unfortunately lead to problems. This old Yorkshire-man's view on deep cycle wet-flooded needs to be related to newer tech. New tech such as AGM's and spirals can 'soak up' to 40% their available capacities rather than the 25% of the older tech. And there we have the nub of it .. .. this CRD car designed for spark not compression has a diesel engine with a petrol standard battery which to me appears to be not fit for purpose in that first place

 

On my first experience with the GV battery replacement. Rang first to check stock, then went to Halfords, ordered their own recommended [put your registration in]  5 year warranted battery the HSB096 @ £129:99 while the nice clepto-cashier lady was emptying my plastic I flicked up the terminal covers to find the Terminals were the wrong way [o O - they should be - O o]  round.

 Posted Image

 

A 12 year old expert fully trained and certificated male assistant wiped the dribble from his nose and stormed out to my MOTA in the rain which was splattering against his thin bony shoulders making a mess of his over white freshly ironed by his Mother .. .. shirt, all the time asserting in a very authoritative way why I way wrong and why it could not possibly be their 'fittings dBase', his matchstick like thin arms finally managed to lift the bonnet without breaking any of his arms only to find the common standard terminals.

 

I did try to help his embarrassment, honest I did, I even offered him one of my Wurthers Originals and assured him we all make mistakes .. .. its all part of life's long learning .. .. but I still want my £230 snots back and I want them now. So now I'm back to where I started, I never in my life thought buying a correct 'soddin battery would be so much trouble.

 

My word what a catalogue of eejits, they listed a 315mm long, 175mm wide, 175mm high, the 315mm is about 27mm / 1.06 inches more than my current battery which will make the 175mm installed height of the battery a full inch closer to the sound deadening material on the underside of the bonnet [radiator side]. So look make you won mind up - for myself - don't believe what these 'enter your registration' dataBASE's tell you .. .. they are as good as the wo/man entering the DATA and I've found three tonight alone that were wrong including EuroParts, they'll flog you anything in hope more that expectation that will fit their abc size dimension model and take you money, they care not at all about what you want, have no interest in pole placement or CCA or anything else - do not believe the dataBase they all use the same CD and they are all wrong, even when they claim to check your VIN number.

 

On chonking the tray The FCM needs to be taken out and re situated and the FCM armoured shield needs to be removed completely. [see below pics]

http://oi41.tinypic.com/2mpbimv.jpg

http://oi41.tinypic.com/16gbn8h.jpg

Its not a big job I pulled the Mopar connector carefully after completely disconnecting both battery terminals. The battery then comes out and the tray also comes out. I used an angle grinder and cut the front lip of the tray out and the rear 'hold down' of the S6 battery. [see below pic]

http://oi44.tinypic.com/fmria0.jpg

 

While I was in there I opened 'swing up and to the left' the IPM and soft brass brushed everything and used a tin of military grade Novec to clean the terminals and connectors as best I could. Reversal was easy, the FCM shield was not replaced and the only issue was that thee terminals on the S6 were the wrong way round and even at a stretch [stretching a loom is a very bad thing] would not reach. I'd already bought a Big Red 200A Key and extended the cables and battery clamps to size so that any battery regardless of orientation would fit and I'd have an extra layer of security because the 3 second act of popping the key in my pocket would leave the car disabled without taking out the battery.

 

On the buttonMOD I'll have to re-think this and post later, essentially thanks to a poster named Leedsman with a background in electronics, he made a simple mod that meant the current thinking of a charge rate of 14v- would be over-ridden to return us to the old school standard of 14.5v+ by the simple insertion of an 18p resistor from Maplins into the charging circuit. he and others did the MOD without risk, without 'gassing' and the charge time in minuted was considerably reduced. I'll need to find the original information in order to honestly report on it.

 

LeedsMans exact words were :

 

Fortunately, there is an easy way to raise the charge voltage to 14.4volt without over stressing anything, as the design of the system is intended to do this -- I refer to the maker's own design here, not mine. 14.4volt is the 'old' charging voltage as used to be.

It consists of inserting a 33K0 (33,000ohm) half or one watt simple carbon film type resistor (worth about 10p.) in series with the live 5volt lead to the "cold battery sensor" mounted under the battery tray. On my GV, the leads are easily accessible coming out from under the battery tray, and on mine are colored blue and brown. The blue is the earthy one, the brown is the 'live' at around 5volt. I just used a small connector block to do the job. The circuit is "dead" at ign. off, there's no need to disconnect anything. Cut the brown lead, strip back and insert into a small connector block of the 2A. type. Fit the 33K0 resistor on the other side of the connector block so the resistor becomes in series with the brown lead. 
Caution: These colors are on MY diesel GV., they MAY be different on yours! But the sensor is easy to find, just slip your hand under the battery tray.

Explanation:--
The voltage used to charge any type of lead-acid battery is crucially important even down to a few tenths of a volt.

 

Thanks to Leedsman http://i.imgur.com/DKa3lr6.png

Its long winded and covers a lot of areas hopefully someone will benefit. I never needed the buttonMOD because I ran a solar charger but I will try to test the MOD and post the info for anyone who needs it.

Edited January 31, 2016 by QinteQ

[stevesmp]

Well after reading lots of good information on battery issues I think I am going to go ahead and purchase the F 18 and undertake the battery tray mod on my GV CDR 2.8. My initial concern was that the battery leads would not

reach the terminals but thanks to Leadsman suggestion of the 200A Key, this shouldn't be a problem. Also big thanks to Qinteq who has also provided a comprehensive walkthrough on some of the battery issues, I am no mechanic so

such information is invaluable. Rgs . Steve