2.8 Crd Won't Start

[oldginger]

Hi everyone. Jumped in car last night to move it, turned over normally but would not start. I had been out in it earlier and all was well. My mechanic friend has had a look at it and it is fuelling ok. His reader only covers petrol models. I have no books so can someone explain the key dance procedure as we believe it could be an immobiliser issue. Any other ideas would be appreciated, thanks in anticipation, old ginger.

[oldginger]

Old ginger here. I don't know how to add more info, so using the reply. Reconnected battery and tried to start it using both keys in turn. Turns over well but no joy. I did notice the fuel gauge needle slowly going right up and then down continuously, Hope someone has some pointers.

[QinteQ]

Yes it could be many things. Starting point is to reboot the computers. I need to know year + is it 2.8 CRD or 2.4 CRD ?.

 

You probably have nothing more than a "low battery condition" (lack of use - search for 'lifestyle' or 'low fuel'.or.'LP issues'. Either way diagnosis starts with rebooting the three computers.

 

Key dance and Chrysler's own workshop manuals can be found on this very forum free of charge. Year and engine size 1st please.

[QinteQ]

manuals: http://oskin.ru/pub/chrysler-dodge/manuals/Service%20Manuals/2005_RS_Caravan_Voyager/

 

take you pick: https://www.chryslerforum.com/forum/chrysler-voyager-town-country-21/uk-grand-voyager-2001-repair-manual-17113/page6/#post97104

 

 

 

 

 

 

[oldginger]

Hi, my car is a 2005 Chrysler Grand Voyager LX crd 2.8 stow n go , I think its RG  and its an auto. At the moment my wife is in the final stages of cancer so my head is a little foggy. Not a lot of time to spare researching but trying to get info for my mechanic friend. As mentioned  before in my ownership everything has been done over the last year and it passed mot recently with no advisories. It has a new top of the range red top battery as recommended by Groves Batteries in Cheltenham. Just checked first registration, Nov. 2005. Regards oldginger.

[QinteQ]

I have recommended red top's for those who can't won't fit an 800CCA/80 fit a tiny GV battery tray. Of course even the RTC 4.2 which is 815CCA can an will go flat or reduce to the point where your car registers a "no start" condition to the software. Fortunately this can be tested by just rebooting the computers and allowing the software to prove its connection to each component.

 

I'm using my telephone, I'll write here the sequence for rebooting the computers tomorrow. You have an RG 2.8 on an 05EURO. NOTE: swinging needles is a classic indicator of "low battery condition" errors!

[oldginger]

Hi, thanks for your help. I may be a little slow replying, got a lot going on, but I need my car up and running. thanks once again.

[andyb2000]

Could be a lot of things.

Always a good call to disconnect battery to reboot computers as qinteq says, gives you a clean slate to start with. (Disconnect battery, leave for an hour (I think from memory), reconnect and do doors lock then unlock)

 

So cold start or warm start it now won't fire at all? Does it sound like it's trying to fire or just turning over on the starter?

 

It sounds fuel starvation or immobilizer. If mechanic only reads petrol codes then you'll not get the crd pressure values, etc which are key here.

Does yours have the red led on top of steering column? It flashes when car locked and 'armed' then should be off when starting, see what it does. Unlikely both keys lost their programming though.

Other option is low fuel pressure due to the pressure relief valve going faulty and not leaving enough pressure in the fuel rail. Difficult to test for this unfortunately without diagnostic gear, pulling codes may read low pressure but not sure since it's not starting.

Good luck and if we think of more ideas we'll post back!

[oldginger]

Hi,  At nearly 72 and with very shaky hands I managed to do the key dance thanks to this forum. the codes are all P prefix ;  0190, 0651, 0641, 2120, 0520, 0235, 0115, 0105, 0110, 0514. Battery has full charge, car turns over fast, just wont fire. I had this on a Trajet, it was the immobiliser. I am trying to find a code list but I have not succeeded yet. All help very much appreciated regards oldginger.

[oldginger]

Hi, andyb2000 we were typing at the same time, I did disconnect battery for about half an hour, I did not know the door gig i'll give it another go, thanks, oldginger.

[QinteQ]

- "turned over normally but wouldn't start"

 

Sounds like (1) your battery needs a full charge or (2) jump leads from your mechanics car running on his 160amp alternator for boost for a full 5 minutesl (or 3) another type of issue.

 

If your mechanic and yourself do manage to get it going you're going to have to not switch off and go for an immediate 50 mile run at 50MPH to recharge your tiny 50aH redtop, don't switch off till you're back in safe area.

 

Your car radio is coded to the BCM so you can not lose your radio code.

[andyb2000]

Those codes listed go from high voltage above threshold, oil pressure, boost map pressure, 02 sensor outside threshold.

(For code list just type "p0651 Chrysler grand voyager" into Google and most of them pop the answer out!)

So those I'd say point to battery problems as lowbattery drives it crazy and sensor values go screwy so I'd not hold too many of those to account.

 

I think qinteq is right, get on a set of jump leads and give it a real kick of power. Diesels need a heck of a jolt to start (especially if maybe one or more glowplugs also have failed)

 

The other option, worryingly may be if the over voltage error is correct the alternator may have sent a spike and caused damage.

All guessing games though I'm afraid.

[andyb2000]

By the way, where in the country are you (roughly), as I'm north east, but right this minute I'm in Kent and I'm sure others on the forum might spare a bit of time to take a quick look if you're desperate

[QinteQ]

By the way, where in the country are you (roughly), as I'm north east, but right this minute I'm in Kent and I'm sure others on the forum might spare a bit of time to take a quick look if you're desperate

.1.

 

Andy, with Gingers problems you could .. .. become a northerner angel. a simple whack with jumpers on donor car's alternators 1500RPM output for 5 minutes would certainly bank enough aH to spin him up. He MUST however invest an immediate vLong run to replace used aH/CCA. 

 

.2.

 

On a different subject I'm due an MOT, still uber low mileage but intend handing in my licence after Xmas.  I can sell or just meet you @ Jimmy's and give it away to you. it is now old but runs better than when I bought it.

 

tell me what you think,, ,, ,,  'R' 

[oldginger]

With my wife's situation lots of neighbours and family have offered help so as its bank holiday I will follow yours and QinteQ's  advice and have a play when i can, and if the trouble persists I know a really good car electrics man that may be able to help. Either way any other ideas or thoughts are welcome and i will keep the forum updated.Thanks guys, to me your all stars. oldginger. 

[QinteQ]

10 engineers 10 different opinions. Generally diagnostics is a menu.from easy DIY cheap to complex professional expensive. What I wrote to Andy said that 5 minutes of jumper leads @ alternator 180ah is 900aH into your 50aH battery. More than enough to start your GV. Once started, keep it running, you should go on a long ride to completely recharge your battery.

 

The above assumes you have LP (low pressure) fuel supply. Best of luck. Want to know more ask.

[gordy]

Yes swinging needles do point to battery problems like Captain says, but battery is whipping engine over ok. Yes well usually does to confuse you as it wants to live.

Seem to think there's a broken wire there somewhere as there's 4 thinks out of threshold. High voltage. Oil pressure. Boost pressure. 02 Sensor. Are these all atop engine under the cover.

Need to check my info on this one.

[QinteQ]

Chrysler's pulse width modulated design signal alternators are known because of their tendancy to spike because the PCM continually swtches between full whack and total off Gordy. Hence my reason for the "batteryMOD"

[andyb2000]

Aye, let us know on progress oldginger, hopefully it's good news.

 

@@QinteQ thanks buddy, I'm sure we can come to some agreement on it, is it this Wednesday you're at your lads as I'll come over for a chat? Think we can get it through an MOT then you can keep using it till Xmas time?

[gordy]

Fuel Rail Pressure Relief Valve. Now here's an item that when its on its way out causes problems. People have relented to new batteries to repair fault. Now batteries get old like we all do (bugger) and Captain could write a book on this.

So its speed of turning that engine over that fires it up. As relief valve wears it lets more fuel through that it should so pressure in rail reduces causing not just no start but other faults like engine cutting out on powering.

[oldginger]

Hi everyone, I had the battery fully charged today and then went through the suggested procedures before cranking. the temp gauge gently moved up and down before settling on the quarter mark. Car turned over vigorously but no attempt to fire. I went through the door locking, bonnet opening and closing routine again and checked everything as i turned on the ignition. everything was perfect, turned key and it whizzed over but did not fire. I have noticed a common theme with the fuel pressure relief valve but i guess i need a proper analyser and all faults cleared. 

[QinteQ]

Aye, let us know on progress oldginger, hopefully it's good news.

@@QinteQ thanks buddy, I'm sure we can come to some agreement on it, is it this Wednesday you're at your lads as I'll come over for a chat? Think we can get it through an MOT then you can keep using it till next Xmas time?

Moving to Yatton next week, need GV till I chuck this house in. Not giving this one up till Xmas earliest.

 

Wasn't thinking of selling you GV..... It's a damn fine very good car - just long in years like me Andy. Sale price was decided last Xmas as £1 English ♿

[QinteQ]

Hi everyone, I had the battery fully charged today and then went through the suggested procedures before cranking. the temp gauge gently moved up and down before settling on the quarter mark. Car turned over vigorously but no attempt to fire. I went through the door locking, bonnet opening and closing routine again and checked everything as i turned on the ignition. everything was perfect, turned key and it whizzed over but did not fire. I have noticed a common theme with the fuel pressure relief valve but i guess i need a proper analyser and all faults cleared.

 

I'll have a think ginger. SKIM/SKREEM and 'trigger wire' prime suspects, secondary would be LP fuel supply. 1/4 on temp design normal, I prefer 1/2 for winteriZing/quicker warm up/reduced diesel costs. I also have Webasto secondary water heater assist.

 

Have you knocked/moved/touched the spade wire on top of the starter motor? That's'triggered' by the IGN when you turn the key - the starter will spin like a banshee but 'trigger' (control wire) allows or denies combustion. Very skinny arms an torch or thin bamboo garden cane with a notch cut in it to move wire on spade!

[bignev]

Hi guys. I've stayed out of the discussion as I'm not a diesel owner, but I just thought I should clarify the point of a 1/4 way up the TEMP gauge - the engine isn't running, it surely should be at the bottom? ?

Now I don't think that if the ecu thought it was warmer it wouldn't start, my diesels fire up with NO glow plug action from cold so pretty sure that's not where I'm heading. But WHY is it reading way warmer than it is?

I guess you've tried a tickle or more of throttle?

Or ginger did you mean the fuel gauge? As you said on your second post.

Totally appreciate you've got a whole bucket of poo going on mate. I wish I was closer to give you a hand on this. We were there 2 years ago with my wife's mum.

Edited August 30, 2020 by bignev

[oldginger]

HI. On reflection it has only been the temp. gauge that has moved up and down. Apologies for a misleading statement, heads a bit messed up, so to clarify, it turns over really good and all gauges are ok except the temp. gauge that slowly moves up about a 5 millimetres and then settles back when key is first turned. I find it strange that it was ok earlier in the day and later it just would not fire, and still does not fire. Modern cars and their stupid computers, ugh. Just tried it this morning and still no joy not that i expected any. Back to nursing, I hope I will find more time to have a play later.

[andyb2000]

Moving to Yatton next week, need GV till I chuck this house in. Not giving this one up till Xmas earliest.

 

Wasn't thinking of selling you GV..... It's a damn fine very good car - just long in years like me Andy. Sale price was decided last Xmas as £1 English ♿

No problem buddy, will await further instruction ;-) hope the move goes okay.

 

@@oldginger hope you can find something, good thinking by @@bignev there, good spot! But potentially red herring.

 

 

It's really sounding like an electrical gremlin which is bad news, ECU or immobiliser I think. The fact it doesn't even try to even catch when turning over is suggesting less fuel starvation (even the worst pressure relief valve would make it sound like it was stuttering/trying) and more the ECU just isn't firing the injectors or giving it the 'will' to live.

 

As time isn't your friend at the moment it's difficult to know what to suggest. I'd be thinking of possibly injector diesel leak off test, at least you'd know diesel was returning from the injectors.

I know this sounds silly, but have you checked all the fuses in the fusebox?