Battery Drain?

[brit644]

New [500 mile] Lucas battery, new alternator and belts all round.

If I dont drive every day..or miss a day theres not enough to start the car [2.8 cd] although turns over quite well.

To be honest only do maybe 100 miles per week. Local garage tells me not driving enough. Course I had to be clever bugger and pulled out the owners manual and asked show me where it says you have to drive every day.

I have all interior lights etc on permanent off. Nothing plugged in either, Did notice maybe 5 weeks ago left the doors open for 90 mins while carpet cleaning [interior lights off] resulting in low battery level.

Had battery checked and all good, alternator is just about 14a

I have a bat pack, connect and starts first crank. The vehicle runs extremely well, have to say love the many pluses and ride of the car..  

Tks 

[QinteQ]

Original post  :Posted 25 May 2017 - 09:26 PM

 

Battery

 

Battery choice, like choosing a wife, provokes different opinions on what is beautiful. The issue however are simple. You should be looking for about 800CCA over 80aH, this is a physical size that will not fit the CRD battery tray, so get a big one and modify the tray, or get a smaller one and take your UK winter chances. There is a~n~other UK issue of lifestyle, its a use it or lose it condition. If like me you do 2000 miles per annum with two 15 minutes trips once a week you will regardless of battery size / cost never keep that battery charged, the BUS [over 7 or so days] at resting will use more than the 30 minutes the alternator was able to replace.

 

Different people have success with different batteries, I'm sure the UK users will come to your aid with their suggestions, particularly the Scottish contingent who have an even colder climate than I. For myself I originally had a Banner Uni Bull 690 over 70 and my replacement was a Bosch S5 Type 96 at 800 over 80. Best of luck.

 

Power seat fuse : are as stated droppers, as you have had your battery removed for 4 days the 'droppers' should re-set themselves via the BCM/IPM

 

Update : Comment on Lifestyle ; Two 15 minutes trips once a week. Here is my personal issue regardless of battery condition at the start of winter I'm always going to run out of battery before the warm weather comes. The average off-draw [see below] of 0.025 amperes always means my personal CCA bank will be empty within six months. I've tried cheap and very expensive German solar and it does not work. I have a brand new spare C6 800/80 fully charged sitting underneath this [best money you will ever spend/waste] this 9 stage charger. I'm lucky enough to have a BA9 to test batteries and can tell you for a fact that no new battery is anywhere 1/2 full when you buy it, is often already approaching its pension and at its half life age when you buy it that's why the stopped putting the DOM date on them, add to our woes EURO legislation stuffing % recycled under-par non-virgin lead into the plates and little surprise then they appear to be less good now than they once were, so best you can do is (1) charge properly (2) test the actual CCA properly and (3) be prepared to bite the bullet and change every Sept to a fully winter ready 80/800. Desperate for a @get out of jail NOW card,, this will go straight in with no moddin. Cant afford the red-top get this Lion. Best of luck.

 

The  higher  the  voltage  applied,  the  faster the battery will charge, charging at too  high a voltage WILL  damage  your  battery. A simple 100Ah open lead acid  battery and a 180A charger connected to the battery discharged to 50% :

 

- @ 50% full @ 13.2V current was 35A

- @ 50% full @ 14,8V current was 160A [improvement of 457%]

- @ 75% full @ 13.2V current was 1A

- @ 75% full @ 14.8V current was 60A [improvement of 6000%]

 

Its not linear so :

 

- two 15 minute periods @ 13.2V is 2 x 15 minute @ 21Ah, compared to ;

- two 15 minute periods @ 14.4V is 2 x 15 minute @ 60Ah, is an improvement  of  about  300%

 

The temperature sensor under the battery will drop [ temperature compensator's on modern alternators will compensate] the voltage output from about 14.0V to about 13.2V. The problem I have with this is the engine compartment soon reaches temp and the battery assumes its fully charged.

 

- 13.20 volts is about what you would expect from [split diode - does not apply to Voyagers, and] this vehicle with a temp sensor & alternator compensator

- 14.00 volts  is about what you would expect from any typical alternator without a vehicle temp sensor & alternator compensator

- 14.40 volts is what you would expect from a sealed lead acid to prevent [they tend to gas @ 50ºC] excessive gassing

- 14.80 volts is what you can risk pushing it to with an open lead acid to prevent damage to other equipment connected to the battery at the same time

 

NOTE01 : There are IOD 7 functions that are 'live' when you think your car and battery are asleep, they pull a combined 0.025 ampere draw. I used a Maplins cheepo solar panel which cost me £15 at the time, and I have never been unable to start the car since. They are :

 

• Electrical items left on.

• Faulty or improperly adjusted switches.

• Faulty or shorted electronic modules and components.

• An internally shorted generator.

• Intermittent shorts in the wiring

Remote key fob

Radio

Heater blower

Folding mirrors

Central locks

Interior lights when the key is in the ignition

 

 

IGNITION-OFF DRAW TEST - reproduced from the workshop manual - According to Chrysler's own workshop manual :

 

Allow twenty minutes for the IOD to stabilize and observe the multi-meter reading. The low-amper- age IOD should not exceed twenty-five milliamperes (0.025 ampere). If the current draw exceeds twenty-five milliamperes, isolate each circuit using the fuse and circuit breaker remove-and-replace process in Step 4. The multi-meter reading will drop to within the acceptable limit when the source of the excessive current draw is disconnected. Repair this circuit as required; whether a wiring short, incorrect switch adjustment, or a component failure is at fault

The term Ignition-Off Draw (IOD) identifies a normal condition where power is being drained from the battery with the ignition switch in the Off position. A normal vehicle electrical system will draw from fifteen to twenty five milliamperes (0.015 to 0.025 ampere) with the ignition switch in the Off position, and all non-ignition controlled circuits in proper working order. Up to twenty-five milliamperes are needed to enable the memory functions for the Powertrain Control Module (PCM), digital clock, electronically tuned radio, and other modules which may vary with the vehicle equipment. A vehicle that has not been operated for approximately twenty one days, may discharge the battery to an inadequate level. When a vehicle will not be used for twenty one days or more (stored), remove the IOD fuse from the Integrated Power Module (IPM). This will reduce battery discharging.

 

BatteryMOD

 

I like many of us was an early adopter of AGM, most of us by now will be AGM. It occurs to me that the safe μF we chose for the buttonMOD could be changed to give closer to 14.4V than the 14.1 I was getting. I went 13.9 to 14.1 it would be nice to have that extra .3V, it would make a hell of a difference on a big 80aH even over such a short charging time frame as 15 minutes.

 

I was thinking 22K Ω @ 1/2 watt would be a goodish guesstimate for keeping it under the 14.6[ish] although I'm sure it would be safe a little higher. I'll be happy if I can get to the extra .3's @ 14.4 * Tested .... smack on 14.4-6 winter and 14+ summer over a 6 month period steady across the REV range. This will better recover the winter loss more quickly. Of course in the summer the ALT output will be limited by the lower battery replenishment needs Well pleased !

 

Update : Changed the  22K Ω @ 1/2 watt for  33K Ω @ 1/2 watt and get a consistent 15+ summer and 14+ winter.

 

[soupstone]

Agree with QinteQ.

 

Do the battery mod and check for parasitic battery drain. 


 

[bignev]

Do you have a digital multimeter to check the voltage of the battery just before you try to start it?

 

This will confirm the above suggestions if it's less than 12.7 to 12.8 volts which is a fully charged unit (I think - please correct me if I'm out on that number)

 

If I'm right less than 12.3 is a fairly low battery. And the 2.8 diesel doesn't appear to like that, especially when it gets cooler.

Edited October 14, 2019 by bignev

[QinteQ]

I made a mistake, I bought an expensive 6 series battery it was $hite, someone gave me a 5 year old F11 [stamped into terminals] to this day it's the best battery in my long round world, turns out the F11 is really a VARTA but this comes close, the Exide EK800 12V 80Ah 800A AGM VRLA Car Battery MERCEDES-BENZ A0009822108.

 

Like most big beast's the terminals are wrong way round but I have a "big red key" fitted on the end of 3' of copper welders cable so I'm ok.

 

NOTE: since eu2006/66 Europe no longer sell 100% virgin lead starter batteries, they all must have a % of scrapyard lead by (damn the greens) law.

Edited October 14, 2019 by QinteQ

[QinteQ]

- NEVER use those "put your registration in here"

- reproduced from May 2017 post in this forum

 

A 12 year old expert fully trained and certificated male assistant wiped the dribble from his nose and stormed out to my MOTA in the rain which was splattering against his thin bony shoulders making a mess of his over white freshly ironed by his Mother .. .. shirt, all the time asserting in a very authoritative way why I was wrong and why it could not possibly be their 'fittings dBase', his matchstick like thin arms finally managed to lift the bonnet without breaking either of his arms only to find the common standard terminals.

I did try to help his embarrassment, honest I did, I even offered him one of my Wurthers Originals and assured him we all make mistakes .. .. its all part of life's long learning .. .. but I still want my £230 snots back and I want them now. So now I'm back to where I started, I never in my life thought buying a correct 'soddin battery would be so much trouble.

So I start the search again - this companies dBase correctly identifies the MOTA even listing the correct colour of my car etc and suggests 2 - both in the S range both will do the job , the;

S4010 / 12V, capacity 80Ah, cold test current 740A / £72:95 - 5 year warranty - free delivery
S5010 / 12V, capacity 85Ah, cold test current 800A / £87:50 - 5 year warranty - free delivery

My one remaining indecision is that though they list 315mm long, 175mm wide, 175mm high, the 315mm is about 27mm / 1.06 inches more than my current battery which will make the 175mm installed height of the battery a full inch closer to the sound deadening material on the underside of the bonnet [radiator side].

Two Three Four Points

.1. - there are many many thousands making new very expensive replacement batteries because you believe what they tell you in their online dBase etc, don't believe it its marketing - you MUST check everything yourself

.2. - why waste all these letters of the alphabet ?, because there is an issue getting an 85/800 in the UK to fit a Voyager, and others following me might benefit from a thread that proves you don't have to go for a lesser capacity paying a lot - when you can have the full 85/800 for relatively little compared to the 175/175/278 size

.3. - don't believe what these online 'enter your registration' dataBASE's tell you .. .. they are as good as the wo/man entering the DATA and I found three that Halfords night alone that were wrong, and one [in hope more that expectation] that's correct

 

.4. - Red Top's - - if the Grand Voyagers are a pig for starting in the cold UK

- and if a battery is a store of energy / starting punch
- why are in the UK do they suggest Voyagers use the Optima 4.2 at about £160 ?
- instead of a similar or better spec TAXI battery at half that price

- NEW: better still the the Exide EK800 12V 80Ah 800A AGM VRLA Car Battery MERCEDES-BENZ A0009822108.

The Optima SPIRAL claim is that :
- It'll last up to 2 times longer than other batteries.
- It can sit unused 3 times longer than other batteries.
- It is over 15 times more resistant to vibration than other batteries.
- It's non-spill-able and can mount in almost any position.
- It provides more power in the initial 1, 3, 5, and 10 seconds of the vehicle starting process than comparably rated conventional lead acid batteries.

I've read the threads on here about the issue with the Voyager in the UK and / or / lifestyle. Others have chosen and had success with different batteries / choices. Sorry about 'wall' of text

So here's the lazy way : Circumstances / mobility / lacking ability. Fit a red top, goes straight in without moddin, not cheap but about 30% cheaper when they were 1st released.

 

Best of luck folks.. ... .... ......

[brit644]

Thanks for all the notes.

Have been shy of getting into it..rain. Bit of a wuz playing with electrics while being showered from above.

Have been using a battery pack last few days. The down time has given space to gather tools etc. Multi meter [20amp] has just arrived.

From monday weather is better so will get at it. Decided to do full leak test, I know the IOD will have the known continuous use items on there but thought to test for other leaks then pull each fuse to find source.

Appears to be correct, battery at 90%....especially at 40deg or below where it shrugs the shoulders and says nah not going to start.

I did try and purchase a 800 crank amp bat but as someone pointed out terminals. I chickened and bought the 650.

Its weird. I have a vehicle in the USA with a 7.4l engine [454 c.in]  with 750 crank amp. At 22 deg  c below it fires first crank..after a month of non use.  Have to admit tho I change to winter oil, from 50 weight summer to 5/30 winter..Course its 15 quid a a gal.

[QinteQ]

Most UK AGM type batteries [.1.flat.2.spiral versions] that are called amp/hours will/can provide continuously until discharged. This is very different tor CCA (cold cranking amps) or CA (cranking amps)
This is where the BA-9 handheld battery tester comes into play:

 

I've got an old Solar BA-9 that still reads accurate

- I tell it SLA/AGM/et.al
- I tell it chemistry AGM/ flat/spiral
- I tell it CA or CCA (CCA
- I push 1 button!

 

Unfortunately these things cost.

 

There's a whole paragraph in the workshop manuals covering this general subject and warning you about leaving for more than a month and in the particular a special fuse with a ledge built in just for pulling this fuse before parking at airports. I'm UK 2.8 CRD no idea what you are my friend, but what I describe as lifestyle is everything in the winter. Use it or lose it my mate.

 

[brit644]

Thanks for all notes/replies

Had it at my local mechs for a full day...Was the damn battery..new one at that with only 500 ml on it

Changed the battery..perfect since