2.8Crd Struggling To Start If Ignition Left On For A Few Seconds

[Liam89]

So I've got a GV 2007 2.8crd that stopped starting the other day which was down to the heater head being burnt badly and leaking diesel when primed. Had that replaced and all was fine for a short while which then it started again.

I then replaced the fuel pressure release valve and it's now starting fine if I start the car straight away but not if I leave it.

Battery was fully charged this week as I ran it flat trying to start the car and that's showing 12v standing and alternator is showing 14v output so believe that is all ok?

Ignition trick shows a p0340 which I think is crankshaft sensor but had that replaced a year or two ago (or so I paid for)

Is there anything else I could be missing? Or should I just pay out for a new crankshaft sensor and fit it and see if the problem goes away?

Thanks

[BumBle02]

I would put a new sensor in it and at least you have eliminate it these sensors do play up good luck with it.

[Liam89]

I would put a new sensor in it and at least you have eliminate it these sensors do play up good luck with it.

I probably will just don't want to replace more things blind but with no other fault codes or cutting out under full throttle anymore I'm at a little bit of a loss. Going to get the code removed tomorrow and see if it comes back. I've read a fair few jeep posts that say about fitting an inline pump as they don't have one on their 2.8crd's do you know if this is the case on the Chrysler's?

Also should the primer be hard all the time?

[frogland]

I was just about to ask if anyone has added an inline fuel pump to their 2.8.

Yeah the primer should be hard all the time. I've just replaced the fuel filter housing/primer with the new updated one and there's still a fuel pressure loss problem going on.

A lot of people on the lost jeep forum suspect dodgy fuel pipe connections in the fuel tank region.

so a lot of them have resorted to an in line fuel pump either in the engine bay or near the tank,I suspect on our cars it would be easier to do it near fuel tank.

Has anyone done this mod ? How could it be done ? what kind of pump would be suitable ?

I'm sure this could be a possible solution that doesnt entail much risk or loads of time and money.

[Liam89]

I was just about to ask if anyone has added an inline fuel pump to their 2.8.

Yeah the primer should be hard all the time. I've just replaced the fuel filter housing/primer with the new updated one and there's still a fuel pressure loss problem going on.

A lot of people on the lost jeep forum suspect dodgy fuel pipe connections in the fuel tank region.

so a lot of them have resorted to an in line fuel pump either in the engine bay or near the tank,I suspect on our cars it would be easier to do it near fuel tank.

Has anyone done this mod ? How could it be done ? what kind of pump would be suitable ?

I'm sure this could be a possible solution that doesnt entail much risk or loads of time and money.

I assume you've been reading what I have on the jeep forums. I assume it's very similar on the GV. I think my pressure is still dropping somehow but haven't checked yet.

[frogland]

yes exactly this low fuel pressure problem crops up all across range range of models fitted with the crd.

Im thinking of something along these lines :

https://youtu.be/BCZR1b-ptXs

[frogland]

Mine as been starting a bit better first time in the hot weather but if i cut the engine and then go to start again it can be difficult I wonder if vapour pressure in the tank has any influence ?

[Liam89]

Have you had any fault codes come up with the key dance?

[frogland]

P0235 (boost) the turbo and EGR are fine and i've replaced the MAP sensor.

[Liam89]

I have p0340 which I believe is crank shaft sensor. Was replaced a year or two ago but might replace it again to rule it out. Only other things I can think of for mine is that the new fuel filter wasn't tight enough or the lines haven't been done tight enough. Failing that I'm out of ideas

[frogland]

The primer on filter housing-does it stay primed ?

[Liam89]

The primer on filter housing-does it stay primed ?

Just checked before I drove it and it wasn't hard but not really soft so not sure what to do. Got someone taking a look tonight so will see what they say

[frogland]

Let us know what they say.

[Liam89]

So no faults found, no codes started every time without fail. Going to get a battery check as he said a battery running low can cause all sorts of issues and codes.

Still tempted to do an inline fuel pump though to ease the stress on it.

[frogland]

I cut the battery tray and fitted the biggest battery I could find- it helps !

[Liam89]

I cut the battery tray and fitted the biggest battery I could find- it helps !

I'm thinking it's battery on mine too. I will replace later this year. Have you done the mod for charging to increase the voltage charging the battery?

[QinteQ]

Reproduced from an old post of mine.

 

Battery choice, like choosing a wife, provokes different opinions on what is beautiful. The issue however are simple. You should be looking for about 800CCA over 80aH, this is a physical size that will not fit the CRD battery tray, so get a big one and modify the tray, or get a smaller one and take your UK winter chances. There is a~n~other UK issue of lifestyle, its a use it or lose it condition. If like me you do 2000 miles per annum with two 15 minutes trips once a week you will regardless of battery size / cost never keep that battery charged, the BUS [over 7 or so days] at resting will use more than the 30 minutes the alternator was able to replace.

 

Different people have success with different batteries, I'm sure the UK users will come to your aid with their suggestions, particularly the Scottish contingent who have an even colder climate than I. For myself I originally had a Banner Uni Bull 690 over 70 and my replacement was a Bosch S5 Type 96 at 800 over 80. Best of luck.

 

Power seat fuse : are as stated droppers, as you have had your battery removed for 4 days the 'droppers' should re-set themselves via the BCM/IPM

 

Lifestyle : Two 15 minutes trips once a week.

 

The  higher  the  voltage  applied,  the  faster the battery will charge, charging at too  high a voltage WILL  damage  your  battery. A simple 100Ah open lead acid  battery and a 180A charger connected to the battery discharged to 50% :

 

- @ 50% full @ 13.2V current was 35A

- @ 50% full @ 14,8V current was 160A [improvement of 457%]

- @ 75% full @ 13.2V current was 1A

- @ 75% full @ 14.8V current was 60A [improvement of 6000%]

 

Its not linear so :

 

- two 15 minute periods @ 13.2V is 2 x 15 minute @ 21Ah, compared to ;

- two 15 minute periods @ 14.4V is 2 x 15 minute @ 60Ah, is an improvement  of  about  300%

 

The temperature sensor under the battery will drop [ temperature compensator's on modern alternators will compensate] the voltage output from about 14.0V to about 13.2V. The problem I have with this is the engine compartment soon reaches temp and the battery assumes its fully charged.

 

- 13.20 volts is about what you would expect from [split diode - does not apply to Voyagers, and] this vehicle with a temp sensor & alternator compensator

- 14.00 volts  is about what you would expect from any typical alternator without a vehicle temp sensor & alternator compensator

- 14.40 volts is what you would expect from a sealed lead acid to prevent [they tend to gas @ 50ºC] excessive gassing

- 14.80 volts is what you can risk pushing it to with an open lead acid to prevent damage to other equipment connected to the battery at the same time

 

NOTE01 : There are IOD 7 functions that are 'live' when you think your car and battery are asleep, they pull a combined 0.025 ampere draw. I used a Maplins cheepo solar panel which cost me £15 at the time, and I have never been unable to start the car since. They are :

 

• Electrical items left on.

• Faulty or improperly adjusted switches.

• Faulty or shorted electronic modules and components.

• An internally shorted generator.

• Intermittent shorts in the wiring

Remote key fob

Radio

Heater blower

Folding mirrors

Central locks

Interior lights when the key is in the ignition

 

 

IGNITION-OFF DRAW TEST - reproduced from the workshop manual - According to Chrysler's own workshop manual :

 

Allow twenty minutes for the IOD to stabilize and observe the multi-meter reading. The low-amper- age IOD should not exceed twenty-five milliamperes (0.025 ampere). If the current draw exceeds twenty-five milliamperes, isolate each circuit using the fuse and circuit breaker remove-and-replace process in Step 4. The multi-meter reading will drop to within the acceptable limit when the source of the excessive current draw is disconnected. Repair this circuit as required; whether a wiring short, incorrect switch adjustment, or a component failure is at fault

The term Ignition-Off Draw (IOD) identifies a normal condition where power is being drained from the battery with the ignition switch in the Off position. A normal vehicle electrical system will draw from fifteen to twenty five milliamperes (0.015 to 0.025 ampere) with the ignition switch in the Off position, and all non-ignition controlled circuits in proper working order. Up to twenty-five milliamperes are needed to enable the memory functions for the Powertrain Control Module (PCM), digital clock, electronically tuned radio, and other modules which may vary with the vehicle equipment. A vehicle that has not been operated for approximately twenty one days, may discharge the battery to an inadequate level. When a vehicle will not be used for twenty one days or more (stored), remove the IOD fuse from the Integrated Power Module (IPM). This will reduce battery discharging.

 

BatteryMOD

 

I like many of us was an early adopter of AGM, most of us by now will be AGM. It occurs to me that the safe μF we chose for the buttonMOD could be changed to give closer to 14.4V than the 14.1 I was getting. I went 13.9 to 14.1 it would be nice to have that extra .3V, it would make a hell of a difference on a big 80aH even over such a short charging time frame as 15 minutes.

 

I was thinking 22K Ω @ 1/2 watt would be a goodish guesstimate for keeping it under the 14.6[ish] although I'm sure it would be safe a little higher. I'll be happy if I can get to the extra .3's @ 14.4 * Tested .... smack on 14.4-6 winter and 14+ summer over a 6 month period steady across the REV range. This will better recover the winter loss more quickly. Of course in the summer the ALT output will be limited by the lower battery replenishment needs Well pleased !

 

Battery Test

 

IMO 99% of test products including garages are useless old 1940's tech, you need even on a brand new battery what CCA it is actually delivering and they are not cheap. Best of luck.

[Liam89]

Thanks I've just been re reading this post. Been trying to decide best option. Red top, blue top, the enduroline (had this for 2 years) or something else. Decisions! I'll also be doing the MOD at work point I think!

[QinteQ]

RED top is an easy straight in, enduroline cheap as chips half of redtop, you get what you pay for. See here. Never ever put your REG in, they will sell you the wrong one, reproduced from an old post years go :

 

Rang first to check stock, then went to Halfords, ordered their own recommended [put your registration in]  5 year warranted battery the HSB096 @ £129:99 while the nice clepto-cashier lady was emptying my plastic I flicked up the terminal covers to find the Terminals were the wrong way [o O - they should be - O o]  round.

 

 http://i40.tinypic.com/1y8j2r.gif

 

A 12 year old expert fully trained and certificated male assistant wiped the dribble from his nose and stormed out to my MOTA in the rain which was splattering against his thin bony shoulders making a mess of his over white freshly ironed by his Mother .. .. shirt, all the time asserting in a very authoritative way why I way wrong and why it could not possibly be their 'fittings dBase', his matchstick like thin arms finally managed to lift the bonnet without breaking any of his arms only to find the common standard terminals.

 

I did try to help his embarrassment, honest I did, I even offered him one of my Wurthers Originals and assured him we all make mistakes .. .. its all part of life's long learning .. .. but I still want my £230 snots back and I want them now. So now I'm back to where I started, I never in my life thought buying a correct 'soddin battery would be so much trouble.

 

So I start the search again - this companies dBase correctly identifies the MOTA even listing the correct colour of my car etc and suggests 2 - both in the S range both will do the job , the;

 

S4010 / 12V, capacity 80Ah, cold test current 740A / £72:95 - 5 year warranty - free delivery

S5010 / 12V, capacity 85Ah, cold test current 800A / £87:50  - 5 year warranty - free delivery

 

My one remaining indecision is that though they list 315mm long, 175mm wide, 175mm high, the 315mm is about 27mm / 1.06 inches more than my current battery which will make the 175mm installed height of the battery a full inch closer to the sound deadening material on the underside of the bonnet [radiator side].

 

Two Three Four Points

 

.1. - unless someone wants to convince me before Monday that it wont fit, or the terminals are arras first I'll buy the bigger one

 

.2. - why waste all these letters of the alphabet ?, because there is an issue getting an 85/800 in the UK  to fit a Voyager, and others following me might benefit from a thread that proves you don't have to go for a lesser capacity paying a lot - when you can have the full 85/800 for relatively little compared to the 175/175/278 size.

 

.3. - if I'm wrong tell me quick !!!! because although this Forum's users will benefit from my mistake, I'll be £88 Quid down the chute !

 

.4. - don't believe what these 'enter your registration' dataBASE's tell you .. .. they are as good as the wo/man entering the DATA and I've found three tonight alone that were wrong, and one [in hope more that expectation] that's correct.

 

[Liam89]

Yeah I've seen this on numerous websites giving the wrong info!

It is half the price but the ah is better on it and it has lasted two years so not too bad I guess? I don't pretend to know it all about batteries but I don't know if it's better to have a higher Ah or higher CCA.

[QinteQ]

aH is not a unit of energy and does not start a 'cold morning' car CCA is a "measurement of the number of amps a battery can deliver at 0 ° F for 30 seconds", particularly the case with compression diesels my friend.

[Liam89]

I think I'm with you now. Is the red top really worth the money? I see they also do yellow and blue tops which can cater for a deeper cycle? The CCA on them looks good but the aH is lower than other batteries I've seen. The car doesn't really get used much and when it does most journeys are 10 -15mins which is why I was thinking of the MOD. I saw about the F18 batteries in one post but requires modification which I'm not worried about. Thanks for the help so far!

[QinteQ]

BlueTop batteries come in both light and dark gray cases; they are marine. YellowTop batteries are for accessories such as boom box's electric fans etc. Totally different type. If you spend a year thinking about this I'll tell you now what your conclusion will be. You are never ever going to win, your issue is lifestyle, or not enough alternator time to recharge the battery.

 

Lifestyle : Two 15 minutes trips once a week.

 

The  higher  the  voltage  applied,  the  faster the battery will charge, charging at too  high a voltage WILL  damage  your  battery. A simple 100Ah open lead acid  battery and a 180A charger connected to the battery discharged to 50% :

 

- @ 50% full @ 13.2V current was 35A

- @ 50% full @ 14,8V current was 160A [improvement of 457%]

- @ 75% full @ 13.2V current was 1A

- @ 75% full @ 14.8V current was 60A [improvement of 6000%]

 

So in 52 weeks you will conclude (1) drive a lot more (2) have it on trickle charge every night (3) have a spare enduroline fully charged which you will need changing Sept and Easter. A big dustbin will hold more than a little dustbin and a big battery will hold more than a little one, a big battery simply gives more 3 second cranks than a little one. 

 

- I also have one of these in the glove box at all times

- in addition to an S6 on a nine stage charger at all times

 

 

It isn't cheap being safe. Best of luck.

 

 

 

[Liam89]

Thanks for your advice QinteQ I value what you are saying and am taking it all onboard and want to make the right decision not a quick decision. Have you or anyone you know of thought about a split charging circuit and run two batteries? I have the ctek 5.0 charger so will also consider keeping a battery on charge all the time if I can do it safely

[QinteQ]

Ctek 5.0 charger is good, 8 not 9 stage like their mxs10 @ £110+ version , good nonetheless. I've long been convinced the Maypole is an EEPROM rip of the ctek @ 1/2 price. Yeh considered split charging, salty price and double the battery price and a big car length install cost and you are still left with the original 'lifestyle' problem - just £400 lighter my mate. I'd rather invest in a 'get out of jail card' GB70 which is charged in the car via USB.

[QinteQ]

I bough the MP428 for £35 and its been continuously on all three batteries for 2 years, in the case of the S6 for 13 months without switching off - ever.