Not Turning Over, General Starting Fun On 2.8Crd

[fbson]

Hello all,

 

I've got a 2006 2.8 and have been having various starting trouble. Until today it has been slack on cold starts, usually starting before the battery goes flat - tends to be weekend use only and a couple of weeks drains it - on the 6th or so turnover. I'd changed the rail pressure overpressure valve and that had no effect. I now suspect that it may be more due to to the fuel filter housing. I have the one with the manual primer pump between engine and rad. The pump bulb is always 'limp' and starting improves when primed, though it's usually a couple of turns of the key before it does. Recent inspection of the filter housing heater connector which was very charred has lead me to buy a new filter housing and replacement loom conn set (issue pre and post recent filter changes) which I'm yet to fit. The recent cut out at 50mph on a dual carriageway prompted me to look into that more...

Anyway, the problem today for the first time is that it didn't want to turnover at all. After about 2 mins of on and off etc with the key it eventually turned over a little and then nothing, repeating the same pattern for about 10 mins until on only the third brief turnover in that whole time it started. All fine for the journey. Then for the return journey almost 20 mins of the same until an eventual start (wife busy on hold with the AA for most of that time who she didn't even get through to at all...!!).

Battery voltage is not bad. I suspect wiring to the starter or the starter solenoid (a wiggle or two of the cables was about all I could manage with no tools today!).

Any thoughts would be welcome!

Thanks.

[bignev]

I'm surprised the diesel owners haven't chipped in yet, but even though the voltage seems OK on the battery, it could still be the battery - ultra common problem with them.

It may have volts but if it's a bit old it will lose its cranking amp capacity so just won't cut it.

I used this information on a Kia Sedona WAV 2.9 diesel we've just got, Yuasa 700cca battery was only 1.5 years old!

It cranks over seemingly fast enough but could take a bit to catch depending on how it felt.

But a battery charger on it, and then full of beans it would start straight away.

So I bought a new 800cca battery - much better. But can STILL play up.....

[QinteQ]

Have a read here and here and here my friend, as bignev will tell you it can be any of a dozen issues, but they need to be ranked ~ tested ~ and made good in order to be economic.

 

Usually from DIY + cheap to specialist + expensive. Everyone has a worthwhile opinion, mine is always battery 1st ~ battery 1st ~ battery 1st battery 1st, then diesel Low Pressure starting supply. Best of luck

[bignev]

Oh indeed as QinreQ says there's plenty of possibilities sadly.

On the Kia it felt like fuel, but then when - without touching anything fuel related - simply a helping hand from my OLD van battery on jump leads had it fire up easily I kind of went away from that thought process!

[fbson]

Thanks for the replies. I'm going to carry on looking into for a bit then.

Could be a combination of problems of course. The cutting out under acceleration bit has me thinking it can't all be battery, but that is a good easy thing to change of course! Thanks again, I'll report back.

[bignev]

Yep you're quite right, that could be one of a few problems fuel related, if I remember my reading correctly a suspect towards the top of the list would be the fuel filter housing / seal.

But do search the forum, it's covered in a few similar posts recently.

Edited June 6, 2018 by bignev

[QinteQ]

- the pump bulb is always 'limp' and starting improves when primed

- new filter housing and replacement loom conn set

- the problem today for the first time is that it didn't want to turnover at all

 

Above suggests #2 problems. Air in or vacuum leak out of the LP side and battery charging issues. I've seen more than several where the white plastic water trap [bottom] has vibrated loose giving both 'no start' and 'decelerating cut out' going into limp0 mode. Either way they along with 'double / twisted 0 a ring and dirty diesel filer are' cheap or cost free DIY issues that need eliminating.

 

 

[fbson]

Yes, thanks for those too. One thing I wonder: if the connector on the side of the fuel filter housing, the one that tends to melt (is it the diesel pre heater?), is disconnected, would the car start? I can't test that as it's a bit temperamental at the moment of course. I had disconnected to inspect previous to the non turnover issue, and as it's not too tidy I guess that could be poor, if any, contact and maybe preventing turnover?

Thanks again.

[andyb2000]

Hm, I'm a little confused by this one, so it won't even turn over? In which case no point looking into fuel yet, need to solve the electrical problem first.

 

With a battery multimeter set to voltage, stick that on the battery and try to turn over. See what the volts drop down to whilst the starter fires (or tries to fire), if it's below 11v then the battery is screwed. Verify that, borrow the battery off another car, jumper to jumper (Even better, other car running and jump leads in place) and try to turn yours over.

If it turns over, you've confirmed, battery problem regardless of what the testers say. Make sure it's a decent battery, QinteQ has the top post on that, read those and look at the CCA carefully. Even my higher CCA battery (Still not the 'proper' CCA for our diesel lumps) struggles to kick mine over at times.

If it doesn't turn over, then you need to investigate electrical, starter motor wire is a common one, the connector rattles and goes bad, also the starter motor relay needs checking:

 

https://imgur.com/a/7lAyHCI

 

After that, then it's onto the non-start problem, have you already checked glowplugs as those will help cold starts? After that, then yes the next is fuel supply, assuming yours is the same as QinteQ and has the filter in the engine bay and not underneath beside the tank?

 

Post back and we'll see what else we can come up with!

Edited June 12, 2018 by andyb2000

[QinteQ]

Zero start or no attempt to engage bendix ? No electrical activity at all is usually trigger wire.

 

 http://my.prostreetonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/starter_solenoid1.jpg

[fbson]

Back again!

Thanks for the further info.

Slight update for now, in that the no turn over at all has not repeated itself, mysteriously...! Though the battery is not great it does just about enough. IOD with the fact I don't use it frequently means it struggles. With the help from here I've done the 'buttonmod' which feels like it can only help. I have a small solar panel too but even in the summer I reckon that's only a psychological improvement and probably a waste of time with the small panel I have. 

Meanwhile, does anyone know if the fuel filter housing melty connector being disconnected would prevent turnover though? I'm going to have a fiddle with the housing at the weekend with any luck so might be able to conclude that myself, but if someone knows...?

Thanks again.

[QinteQ]

A good 70W German panel correctly orientated in the summer will do, in the winter no idea but should do. A cheepo panel from Maplins won't hack it even in the summer. The 'buttonMOD' gives me 14+ in the summer and 14.5 in the winter which is a shipload better than the default before the buttonMOD. The Optima RedTop battery @ 800CCA will go straight in for about £150 delivered will straight in but will not fix your 'lifestyle' issue of infrequent use.

[gordy]

Yes need shake-up on answer too this too, hope you have it sorted.

[fbson]

I've made a start this evening (not much time, but pretty slow at this too!) at removing the fuel filter housing to replace with a new one. Not as easy to get to as I'd hoped. I've had to shift the steering fluid res out of the way and hold it there with some ties. I've got it on ramps to get to the bottom too, but I've done most from the bonnet so far. The nuts that hold it on are a bit of a mission to get to, but with a deep offset 16mm spanner I've managed it - nothing from 3 different socket sets could get to them. It would probably be easier if I removed the fuel hoses first, but wanted to leave that bit till last. Got to leave it until tomorrow eve now - and just to add to the fun, where I've got it the sun in the evening makes it mighty difficult to see what's going on! Still, it's entertaining so far, and I'm looking forward to seeing how it goes.

Meanwhile, I did spot that starter trigger wire from underneath - thanks for the image QinteQ. I now suspect that the non turnonver event I had was a result of me knocking that to a position of poor contact when fiddling with the filter housing melty plug - it is right next to at and at the same end of the same loom with not much spare wire length between them. Again, once I've swapped the housings and replaced the melty connector I'll see if I can confirm that.

[fbson]

Managed a bit more. Turns out the fuel hoses aren't easy to get off of the housing. They came eventually but after making a tool to push the uncouplers I had to give up, remove the banjo bolts and get them out then which did the trick. I've also spliced the new cable and connector on - needed crimp, solder and heatshrink all where there's very little room to get to it, but went ok. I've left that there for now as I ran out of time, and went to have a look at the heater section of the old fuel filter housing. The connector is melted and charred all over the place, and probably leaks, but it wasn't terrible so we'll see how it goes. The innards of the connector (inside the housing) was like this:

To be continued...

 

[fbson]

Well I got it all changed this morning. As part of it, tightened the spade female conn onto the starter trigger as it wasn't very tight. The purge took a good few pumps, and of course the purge fitting is rubbish for access - poor location the whole thing it seems to me. Anyway, end result so far is that it starts ok, and so far on accelerating as hard as poss up to 60, albeit with less of a load of passengers than when it cut out on the dual carriageway originally, it has been fine.

My advice to others attempting the fuel filter housing change would be that you barely need access from underneath - it made a couple of minor bits a little easier, but if I have to do it again I'll do it all from the bonnet.

Turns out the next job will be the glow plugs, which looks like a mission to get to. I managed to only access one to test and it's completely dead, so thought I'd get all four and try and get to them another time based on the you tube vids on it. Fingers crossed for that. Thanks for the info on the way - now I'm onto another thread in a bit to work out what all the mess on top of the engine's from...

[frogland]

Well after 160 quid spent on a new filter head housing,there's no change !

I'm still having fuel pressure issues. I have to hand prime and keep play with the accelerator pedal to start.

 

I must say i don't have much confidence in those fuel hose connectors.

 

Well at least i've eliminated a possible cause.

Next i'm going to do an injector leak test,are the any tutorials out there?

Do I need to buy a leak kit,or can be done more simply ?

[bignev]

Will it start if you use easy start

[frogland]

Its been really really hot here in the south of France so I think that's helping,If I try to start without putting any pressure on the accelerator it i'll turn for a few revs and then cut out,as soon as I give it some accelerator during ignition it will start no problem.

I've never had to resort to easy start.

[frogland]

It just started with just a slight bit of hesitation and without any pedal assistance after having been left for 3 hours,but it has been extremely warm here.

 

I've thrown a lot of cash and time at it so far,im just getting stubborn with it now ) next stop:check injectors,an maybe i'll replace the relief valve on the rail just for the heck of it even though I've done the test and it wasn't leaking.

[bignev]

The reason I ask about easy start is related to the injectors.

 

Following on from the comments I made in #2 on 3rd June, our Kia Sedona 2.9 got worse, after it started 1st time in the day it would be a sod to start again without a whiff of help.

After I did a leak off test it identified 3 knackered injectors, but it ran really well when it was running, apart from lots of black smoke.....

All of them peed through fuel, so much in less than a minute so I had to stop the test!

 

So tonight I have finally finished the job of 4 2nd hand injectors, and it's seeming to be sorted - we'll recheck that in the morning!! 

[andyb2000]

Great news Nev, How were the injectors to do then, not too bad or took a while on them? I keep putting it off as don't get much on leak-off but wonder if it would help on mine.

 

Yeah, there are a few things that cause this and stubborn is the way to go! Keep at it and you'll get it sussed.

[bignev]

On the Kia 3 were fairly easy - ish to get out, 2 of them did require an injector removal kit (usual auction / buy it now site - £45) with a slide hammer though, but 3 out in one evening. They are Delphi, with an M14 thread on the top of them so a doddle to get the adaptor on.

 

The 4th one however, the one with the ton of leak off naturally, took many attempts to eventually get it out, and going back downwards a little (which I really did not want to do given how much effort it took to get it up the first 25mm) and soaking it with WD40 hoping some would get down the sides.

 

And i managed to strip the thread on the adaptor of the kit! I'm stronger than I thought   but they sent a replacement bit PDQ so Friday evening I got at it, up, down a bit, got frustrated and angry gave it everything I had and it started to finally come up a bit more. So after a breather more welly and out it came, at last.

 

One of my neighbours is a mechanic (not too generous with his time though - disappointing after I've fixed his boiler a couple of times) and lent me a little wire brush device to clean up the bore for the injector body. It has a rod with a brass ferule on the end that fits in the nozzle hole to stop crud ending in the bores.

 

So far so good, it keeps starting up really easily at the minute, but I'm never too sure I'm out of the woods till a while later!

Doesn't spew black smoke like a Klingon cloaking device now either  

Edited July 21, 2018 by bignev

[frogland]

ok so it is possible to clean injectors DIY ? Many advise against it but it costs a packet to get it done professionally!

[bignev]

Do definitely do the leak off test first, it's not that difficult.