1St Post, Need Help With Starting/cutting Out Issues.

[jembutler]

Hi all, i have a 2006 Grand Voyager 2.8crd, last winter it became very difficult to start (3 or 4 attempts every morning) and i presumed it was glow plugs, never bothered getting them done and during the summer months fired up 1st time everytime. Now back in winter difficulties started again, this only happens in the morning, if I drive to work it wont struggle to start again all day even if left for 8 hours! , so i took it in to a garage and had the glow plugs replaced, no difference!!

 

So this week after some advice i bought a new fuel pressure relief valve and fitted it yesterday. Primed the system back up and it fired up (took a couple of attempts) all seemed fine, went out last night and was travelling along about 20 - 30mph and then put my foot down and nothing, engine cut out and i coasted to a halt. Left it for 30 seconds and it started again no problem, this happened a few times on my way back home.

 

Today i have refitted the old releif valve and it has stopped the cutting out??? 

 

Can anyone help as to how I can sort this or do I have to put with either bad starting or cutting out?

 

Many thanks

[mikebh8]

Hi, on YouTube you will finalize videos how to make a n injector test leak.

It involves four plastic cups (or similar) and four fine hoses to fit on to each injector's return.

Try that as exactly that was happening to mine two winters ago.

[SJC]

Hi Jembutler.

Did you find a solution? I have exactly the same problem, same model...fitted pressure relief valve to cure starting issue which worked well, but now I have the cutting out problem. 

Currently in the garage but they are scratching their heads. 

They are looking at injectors (£££)

Can you shed any light?

[nathanevans]

Check the fuel filter housing, they can get hot and crack letting too much air into the fuel causing the engine shutdown, I had it a lot. If when you prime it you can hear air escaping it could be that, if you remove the fuel heater plug on the side of the housing and it is wet (after priming) then you have a cracked housing and it needs replacing.

[soupstone]

SJC, when was the fuel filter last changed? 
Twice I've removed and refitted the filters on GVs and it has solved a cutting out issue, as they were letting in air. Both had had recent filter changes and the bowl or filter not tightened enough.


 

[SJC]

Hi Soupstone and Nathanevans:

 

I have had the fuel filter replaced very recently (and got the garage to check that they tightened it enough and did not leave the old o-ring in place). This was at the same time as the fuel pressure sensor being replaced and the pressure relief valves being replaced.  Replacing the pressure relief valve solved the starting problem. 

 

The car then started to cut out (new problem, which only presented after fixing the starting problem). The garage replace the fuel filter housing and associated electrical connections(there was a crack and wetness, as described).

The garage are now looking at injectors, which will cost £££.

The garage ave been able  to replicate the fault in road tests, but are unsure if it is electrical or fuel related. They initially thought fuel, then changed their minds as it was cutting out so suddenly (i.e. without spluttering), and now they are thinking fuel again.

The car is not presenting any fault codes, so thinks that everything is OK.....I felt slightly differently when it cut out when I was driving at 70mph on the motorway...without a hard shoulder to pull over on to!!!

 

I trust the garage, but was wondering if anyone else had experienced the same problem, and it turned out to be a different fix other than fuel filter or filter housing.

Someone mentioned a PVC Valve relay....but I do not know what that is. Any clues.

 

Thanks

[andyb2000]

Hi there,

 

Take a look at my ongoing thread: http://www.chryslerforum.co.uk/topic/2219-28crd-cutting-out-above-25k-rpm/

 

I'm currently diagnosing this step-by-step myself and so far haven't found a conclusive answer, similar to your garage. The reason why the ECU isn't giving codes (Other than generic fuel pressure faults) is because the 2.8CRD diesel was a 'modification' to the original range and the specific diesel faults aren't mapped into the ECU, an example is you can disconnect the lift pump, fuel heater, etc, and the ECU won't throw a code, because it doesn't know these items exist.

 

Unfortunately it's ongoing for me, and I get the same cut-outs, normally in cold weather though, as I was driving today in 5oC and no cut outs and engine started without any smoke and ran very smoothly. When it's at it's worst, starting gives clouds of smoke (unburnt diesel type), smokes when running and feels rough when you accelerate or watch it idle (When it keeps running that is).

[SJC]

HI andyb2000,

 

Do you know what the pcm valve relay is? 

It was mentioned in this post as the solution....see last post...

http://www.chryslerforum.co.uk/topic/1938-intermittent-cut-out/?hl=%2Bcutting+%2Bout&do=findComment&comment=8379

 

Thanks

[SJC]

SJC, when was the fuel filter last changed? 

Twice I've removed and refitted the filters on GVs and it has solved a cutting out issue, as they were letting in air. Both had had recent filter changes and the bowl or filter not tightened enough.

 

 

 

Very recently...last month,

Injectors were in need of replacement. I find out today if that has solved the problem. 

[andyb2000]

Hi @@SJC when you say injectors were in need of replacement, was that the garage telling you that, what evidence did they have for it as I'd be very interested in what testing (pressure, leak-back, etc) they carried out to come to that summary. Injectors (all 4) won't be a cheap repair as new they run to around £200 each.

 

Sorry, I missed your other question. PCM valve relay doesn't make a lot of sense. I'll look it up when at home on my diagnostics software, but PCM is powertrain control module, so what "valve relay" doesn't sound quite right! I'll look it up though and let you know.

 

Fingers crossed it has solved your issues though.

Edited January 29, 2018 by andyb2000

[SJC]

Hi Andyb2000,

The garage did a leak back test (I think), which indicated the injectors could be failing but they told me that the test could not be 100% conclusive. So they employed a specialist injector tester, who can somehow assess the functioning of the injectors (for £30 an injector) and that would tell us for sure if they were failing or functioning correctly. 3 of mine were failing and the 4th did not have a good spray profile apparently.

 

The specialist said that with failing injectors, he would expect the car to cut out suddenly. However, this does not mean the injectors are the final piece of the jigsaw, as it is possible that something else has also failed, and finding the fault with the injectors was a "happy" coincidence, and they would have needed to be replaced anyway. 

 

The only other clue i have is that it  stalled when it dropped down a gear to over take, whilst the cruise control was active. However, I could easily replicate the issue, without cruise control on, so probably nothing to do with the cruise control, but more like an acceleration issue, which maybe consistent with what the injector specialist was saying. 

 

Yes  this is costing me a small fortune but, I can't sell a cut that cuts out, (other than for scrap) and £2000 is not going to buy me what i need, so a case of suck it up and hope they eventually find the offending part.

 

I will find out tomorrow hopefully.

 

Thanks for looking to the PCM Valve relay...I don't even know what it is or what it does. 

Cheers

 

 

I will find out tomorrow hopefully.

 

Thanks for looking to the PCM Valve relay...I don't even know what it is or what it does. 

[QinteQ]

.I don't even know what it is or what it does

 

 

So the PCM [[Powertrain Control Modules (PCM)]] [regulates the cooling fan, air conditioning and speed control systems etc and changes the alternator charge rate by adjusting the alternator field] it also performs diagnostic functions such as on the PCM Valve relay : petrol.

[SJC]

So the PCM [[Powertrain Control Modules (PCM)]] [regulates the cooling fan, air conditioning and speed control systems etc and changes the alternator charge rate by adjusting the alternator field] it also performs diagnostic functions such as on the PCM Valve relay : petrol.

Thank you. Hopefully the injectors were the cause of my cut outs, but I guess the PCM could be on the "suspects" list.

[SJC]

So garage have fitted 4 new injectors, and it so far so good. They have tested it and cannot replicate the cutting out. I have only driven it short distance, but it starts well (when previously it didn't) and it hasn't cut out, when previously it might have.

 

If anything changes I will get back on here, but for anyone else who is experiencing poor starting and cutting out here is the order of events for me:

 

• Fuel Filter
• Pressure relief valve
• Fuel filter housing and wiring loom
• Pressure sensor on fuel rail
• Injector testing
• New injectors

 

My car has been renamed Triggers Broom!

[QinteQ]

Expensive, but if it cures it forever its money that had to be spent. hanks for informing the group.

[SJC]

Expensive, but if it cures it forever its money that had to be spent. hanks for informing the group.

Thank QinteQ. It was a bit pricey, but I wouldn't sell on a dangerous car, and it was cheaper than buying a new car. The group has been helpful, so happy to record my experience. 

[jembutler]

Right, after all this time (and money) i'm no further down the line. Had new glow plugs fitted and relays checked, new filter housing and filter (the one on the engine with primer pump fitted), new pressure relief valve, injectors and rail checked. Still bad starting when cold!!! Local garage struggling to find what else it could be? The car has done less than 70,000 miles and is in great condition so dont really want to get shut but its looking more likely the best way to go.

[mikebh8]

Try the battery, after a long trip (more than 30 mins) measure the battery voltage, disconnect the battery and next day check what voltage do you have...if is a bad battery it may cure the hard starting issue.

[jembutler]

Try the battery, after a long trip (more than 30 mins) measure the battery voltage, disconnect the battery and next day check what voltage do you have...if is a bad battery it may cure the hard starting issue.

Mike its a brand new battery and the voltage is fine, alternator output is fine. I always manage to get it started just after multiple attempts in the cold. All last summer it was fine.

[SJC]

So garage have fitted 4 new injectors, and it so far so good. They have tested it and cannot replicate the cutting out. I have only driven it short distance, but it starts well (when previously it didn't) and it hasn't cut out, when previously it might have.

 

If anything changes I will get back on here, but for anyone else who is experiencing poor starting and cutting out here is the order of events for me:

 

• Fuel Filter
• Pressure relief valve
• Fuel filter housing and wiring loom
• Pressure sensor on fuel rail
• Injector testing
• New injectors

 

All working fine....up until this morning (-6 degrees C). Started fine , drove 5 minutes down the road and it cuts out. Loss of power steering, but lights still on.

Managed to get it t started with booster pack, because battery stopped turning the engine over (just clicked)

Then after a 10 minute journey and parking up, it cuts out when stationary, after i gave it some high revs, took foot off gas, and it then stalled. 

Started again, gave it some gas in "Park" and it cutout again.

 

When driving there does seem to be some lag between gear changes at low revs, or when it drops a gear.......but cant quite put my finger on it. My hunch is that there is some electrical control system which is delivering fuel which is not working....but i don't know enough about cars to be any more specific. 

 

Any clues anyone?

[Alex]

Sounds like bad earth, had it on mine. Cheap easy thing to try as well. Take your jumper cables put one end on negative and the other clamp to starter motor mounting bolts. If car turns over easier. Fit new earth to start motor mounting bolt. I left old earth just joined onto new earth battery clamp.

[blackvelvet]

SJ

Why did the battery stop turning the engine over?

[SJC]

SJ

Why did the battery stop turning the engine over?

I am not sure. I dont think the battery that was fitted recently has enough Cranking amps and it is good for a few turn overs, and then after a few failed attempts of turning the engine, when i turn the key, the ignition simply clicks (with a red flashing light on steering column and the hazards turn on for 2 or 3 flashes.) It seems to be a flat battery, but i am not convinced. The car seems to decide that it will not even try to turn the engine (so you never hear it turning over slowly....it just stops turning over suddenly and it goes into flash lights mode. Jump starts fine, and then will start on its own thereafter.

[SJC]

Sounds like bad earth, had it on mine. Cheap easy thing to try as well. Take your jumper cables put one end on negative and the other clamp to starter motor mounting bolts. If car turns over easier. Fit new earth to start motor mounting bolt. I left old earth just joined onto new earth battery clamp.

Thanks Alex.....Would that cause a cut-out whilst driving?

Or it is a potential solution to non-starting issue?

[Alex]

These heavy diesels pull alot of amps for startup. In cold it's far higher. Corroded earth in wiring harness is not unheard of. Mine was getting harder to start. Then just clicking from starter motor. I also saw dash clocks doing strange things. All gear lights lit up. Id already fitted new battery. Dawned on me the earth might be problem so tried jumper cable from negative on battery to starter motor bolt. Dash lights and gear selection lights behaved instantly and car started first turn. I'd add I did usaul checking existing earth was tight and battery terminals where tight. Battery seems to charge alot better now.

And yes bad earth can cause cut out while running. And super easy and cheap to try. I need to figure how to post pic

It might not totally solve everthing but help getting descent power to starter motor.

Edited March 2, 2018 by Alex

[mikebh8]

The engine mount beneath the air box should be earthed, it is just a 10 cm metal strip from the bit that is attached to the engine to the bit that sits on the body. I had problems with that too, I fitted a 10mm earth wire with eye crimps at each end.

 

Hope it helps.