2.8Crd Cutting Out Above 2.5K Rpm

[andyb2000]

(Apologies for cross-post from the .com forum, wanted several sets of eyes on it!)

 

Well this one has finally hit me, first the basics.
2005 2.8CRD RHD at 130k miles.

It started to get worse at starting, bit of a feather on the accelerator and it usually fires, after the first long cold start it was better. Had replaced glow plugs a while back and confirmed they're working. Battery in good nick too, have tested and topped it regularly. So eliminates the low turnover, glow plug, cold starting usual potentials. At cold start it gives a cloud of greyish smoke. Have also checked, no oil in water or vice versa, nothing suggesting any issues with head, block, etc (Been there in past GV so know what to look for!).

Yesterday it really struggled to start (-1oC outside all day pretty much) as it was starting then immediately dying out. Bit more throttle and eventually it would start, then runs great, no issues.

Until this morning, again cold (-4oC and was cold all night long, so car stood on driveway), really struggled to start and when it started it sounded 'lumpy' almost as though not firing on all cylinders. Cloud of greyish smoke at start too. Drove away and after a few minutes the firing seemed to sort itself out and it sounded happy again.
Until about 5 minutes down the road, went to accelerate away from a roundabout (I'm not a heavy foot so I wasn't booting it) and it really spluttered, again like not on all cylinders (But don't think that was it) and then cut out. Rolled to side of road, tried to start and it turned over a few times until with feathering of throttle it started up.
Without load (Sat in park) I can hit the rev limiter at 2.5k and it sounded fine, no stutters or burbles or anything.
As soon as under load and you take it just above 2.5k it stutters struggles then cuts out, no matter what you do you can't 'regain' it after it does that.

So, sat on the driveway, tickling it to start it'll run, sound fine, I can rev it under no load and it's fine. Leave it to idle for a few minutes and you start to hear it 'seek' so revs drop a little then recover, does that a few times then drops too much and it stalls out.

So things I've done/checked:

* About 1yr ago changed the in-tank fuel filter. Mine is the 2.8CRD with the lift pump in the tank at the rear, changed the screw on filter on it, easy enough and filter wasn't too bad. So my suspicion is it's not that. (This is the Grand Voyager without front filter+primer)
* Low pressure lift pump runs at ignition turn on and primes the system, at least it sounds right
* glow plugs are on/working and pulling current, so not those
* P1130 showing many times on key dance - so it's fuel pressure related (makes sense)
* Pressure relief valve on fuel rail - Tested by disconnecting return pipe, seeing what run-off I get, and it's nothing, zero. So not that.
* Checked connector for fuel pressure sensor (on the common-rail towards the front), connector was ok, voltage ok

So questions on what it could be:

* Crank position sensor
* Fuel heater? (Didn't know anything about this, will check it!)
* Fuel pressure solenoid
* High pressure fuel pump
* Injectors (Though could all have failed/faulty?) - Going to do leak test again to verify.

Anyone any suggestions, I think I'm going to have to get it to a CRD specialist to test the high pressure side out to find out whats going on here.
But anything to help please guys would be appreciated.

 

[mrtibbs]

Hi, yes that is my thinking. Good luck and please post back to let us know the result

 

Keith

[andyb2000]

Right, well this is getting odd now!

As you know, I spun the fuel filter off, had a look and didn't see much of a problem. I've not really used the car since. This weekend I had it out and driving (Went for MOT) and thought I'd see how it was behaving. I could NOT get it to stall on me, hard acceleration, slow acceleration, almost red-lining the revs and it just wouldn't do it!

Thought it was a fluke but did it several times over the weekend and can't get it to fail on me.

 

So several bits to this:

I've had the fuel filter off, filter out, tipped gunk out of bottom of housing, reseated rubber o-ring and refitted it.

I've also been running this potentially 'bad' fuel down (down to half a tank now from full) and have put redex diesel injector cleaner in it (upping the RON).

 

So could it have been a combination of the above? I'm not saying this is fixed as I'm expecting it to do it again but I'm starting to wonder now.

[Expoman]

Funny, I had that the other day as I wrote above, will take mine out again today.

 

The dreaded intermittent fault, the mechanics nightmare!

 

One possible explanation for the problem I have seen on the web is the fuel filter housing 'o'ring cracking and allowing air into the system so it could be that in your case, the reseating has improved the sealing?

 

I am very persuaded by Keith's explanation as to why we have have to switch off the ignition completely added to the fault code of loss of pressure in the fuel system. What puzzles me is that I can rev the you know what's out of the engine in P or N and it never falters - why should this be?

 

My new parts have not arrived yet, hoping that they will today so expect to have them fitted and the car checked out by a diesel specialist within the next 7 to 10 days.

 

Fingers crossed that we are close to solving this problem........

[soupstone]

Right, well this is getting odd now!

As you know, I spun the fuel filter off, had a look and didn't see much of a problem. I've not really used the car since. This weekend I had it out and driving (Went for MOT) and thought I'd see how it was behaving. I could NOT get it to stall on me, hard acceleration, slow acceleration, almost red-lining the revs and it just wouldn't do it!

Thought it was a fluke but did it several times over the weekend and can't get it to fail on me.

 

So several bits to this:

I've had the fuel filter off, filter out, tipped gunk out of bottom of housing, reseated rubber o-ring and refitted it.

I've also been running this potentially 'bad' fuel down (down to half a tank now from full) and have put redex diesel injector cleaner in it (upping the RON).

 

So could it have been a combination of the above? I'm not saying this is fixed as I'm expecting it to do it again but I'm starting to wonder now.

When I had a cutting out issue on my 2.5, all I did was remove and refit the filter bowl and that cured it.  

 

Removing and refitting the front filter on my 2.8 also stopped the same symptom cutting out problem. That was finger tight when I went to take it off, the guy had serviced it before I picked it up. 

 

So I'd say it's quite possibly been the cause all along. 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 9, 2018 by soupstone

[Expoman]

Well, my filter and housing arrived today, so I'll get it fitted.

 

I've used the car a further 5 times now and it hasn't cut out once!

[andyb2000]

Just to add to this, I've done around 500 miles more in mine now and still no issues after just taking off and back on the filter housing, think you might be onto something there @@soupstone

 

I've still got the replacement Bosch filter ready so if it does it again I'll swap it... As everyone DID suggest as first thing to do and I didn't since I'd already done that 1yr ago!

 

It's a weird one @@Expoman and strange also yours has been fine. I'm waiting for - temperature weather again (was 0oC this morning) as it was on a -2oC day it happened the first time, not sure if that's related. Good luck m8

[QinteQ]

A 'spin on' metal can with plastic water drain tap on the end.

 

 http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/CSsAAOSwlfxXHAnv/s-l400.jpg

 

Spin off the old one and lubricate the ring on the top of the new one with a finger of engine oil, make sure the plastic drain tap on the bottom of the new one is tight, and spin on the new cannister. Draw through the diesel with the hand lift pump which is central between RAD and engine, when the hand pump is hard you have done the job.

 

A slack[ened] drain tap or loose[ned] can seat is a big LP favourite for "car turns over but will not start". Best of luck.

[soupstone]

 Pretty sure the rear fuel bowl has a drain tap on it as well, so worth checking for either setup. 

 

[andyb2000]

Well, I'm currently sat broken down again. This morning we had snow and cold temperatures (0oC) which was the same as last time so it is temperature related.

 

This is cutting out and dying at low revs as well as higher revs (idling it'll stall out itself).

So next plan is change the fuel filter. Next maybe the fuel heater in the fuel housing since it's always in very cold weather?

[soupstone]

The filters definitely worth a go.
 When you mentioned gunk earlier, was there a lot? Emptying the filter bowl may have got rid of a lot of it,  giving you a good flow again, but it's built up again and is partially blocking the filter? 
​ This is a long shot, but perhaps google diesel bug (again, due to you mentioning gunk). I read about it when running biodiesel, and put an additive in to prevent it. I'm under the impression pump diesel can contain bio diesel these days, up to 5% without being declared. 

  

Edited January 18, 2018 by soupstone

[QinteQ]

UK GOV Bio

 

Some diesel biofuels made from food crops, produce more emissions than fossil fuels and bump up the price of food crops. The 4.75% in fuel is going to rise towards the 10% EU-wide target by 2020.

[soupstone]

If it's grown specifically for biofuels, I can see why it would produce more emissions and increase the price of food crops. 
Mines was made at home from used oil, collected from local businesses, and cost about 60p a gallon. 

[mikebh8]

The filters definitely worth a go.

 When you mentioned gunk earlier, was there a lot? Emptying the filter bowl may have got rid of a lot of it,  giving you a good flow again, but it's built up again and is partially blocking the filter? 

​ This is a long shot, but perhaps google diesel bug (again, due to you mentioning gunk). I read about it when running biodiesel, and put an additive in to prevent it. I'm under the impression pump diesel can contain bio diesel these days, up to 5% without being declared.

 

In europe (in some places at least I noticed on our trips) it says on the pump something like " it may contain at least 5% biodiesel"

[andyb2000]

Well, this gets stranger perhaps, so bear with me!

After getting it home, starting to think through it all again, as was about to change the filter @@mikebh8 as I was thinking the same, gunk in there, building up over time, so swap/clear it out again.

 

Then I thought, this is temperature related. Cold weather every time. So looked at what is temperature linked. Diesel fuel heater, which is inside the filter assembly. Shop manual states it operates at 8oC and lower and will run fuel temperature up to 25oC. So that would/should be running helping the fuel atomise (General google search confirms that all diesels have this and symptoms of failure are exactly this, cold weather start and random cut out).

 

So went to check the fuse and relay first... MISSING from fusebox. 

 

So I borrowed a relay and fuse, ignition on and the 20amp fuse blew straight away, so we've got a short. So, went under car and disconnected the connector block (6-way to the fuel assembly, carrying the lift pump power, water-in-fuel sensor and the fuel heater). Tried again, blew fuse again, so I now know it's actually a wiring fault/short to ground somewhere between the IPM and the connector at the fuel filter housing.

 

So that's the next job, find the wiring fault/short causing the problem. Maybe I'm getting somewhere, or maybe I'm on a wild goose chase, either way I've got a fault to fix!

 

If anyone else could do me a favour? If you have a diesel GV, have a look for that fuse and relay, just to confirm they should actually be in there. I'm going to say yes they should since the electrical connections exist, the diagrams show the existence of the heater, etc.

 

[soupstone]

 Yes, the fuse and relay are both present in mines. 

[andyb2000]

 Yes, the fuse and relay are both present in mines. 

 

Great, thanks for the extra confirmation!

[QinteQ]

Ditto Andy.

[bignev]

Mine too!

 

(yes, I know,  mines petrol!!)

 

Marked up for the fuel pump.

Edited January 19, 2018 by bignev

[andyb2000]

Thanks all.

And so it continues! So I've been tracking down the short to ground on the fuel heater wiring, I *think* it's where the wiring loom comes in from the passenger side wheel through into the cockpit behind the glovebox, but I didn't dismantle the dash far enough.

So, what I've done is located the wiring loom down the centre of the vehicle, identified the wiring colours from the IPM/fusebox and cut the wires towards the rear before it went back out to the pump assembly connector.

 

I've included photos so everyone else has reference if they ever need to trace cables/wiring looms!

 

Back of the IPM (remove battery, then the IPM flips up easily from a plastic clip) and the connector in question is the ORANGE almost dead centre here. Traced that to the relay switched positive side. (So from battery positive it goes to one side of the 20a fuse, other side of fuse goes to relay (omron 21911c) pin 87. Output of switched relay pin 30 goes to dark blue wire with orange stripe pin 2 on the orange connector at back of IPM.

 

 

So then follow that wiring loom, it goes into the wheel arch on passenger side, up and over and into the cockpit. I didn't identify that location, but that's my guess where the damage to the loom exists. That's my next job as my thinking is if that wire has shorted, another or others are next on the hit list!

 

Inside the car the loom then splits and either goes along the passenger door, passenger seat belt pillar, to rear door. Other part of the loom crosses somewhere under the passenger seat, into the middle duct of the car. So to access that, take the mount for the centre middle-row console out.

 

You can see the black plastic cover for the duct. Unfortunately the break/split point is somewhere along the middle between the middle and rear seats, so as you can see I decided to cut the carpet to gain access.

 

 

And you can then lift up the plastic and gain access

 

 

You can see the rubber grommit where the cables that run down to the lift pump go, so that wiring plug carries: fuel heater, fuel lift pump, and water-in-diesel sensor. 6-way.

 

The connector underneath that plugs into the lift pump assembly is a 6-way, pin 1 (top left) is the heater pin (dark blue wire with orange stripe) and bottom right (pin6) is ground.

The fuel heater is approx 3ohms on mine, which @12v and 20amp potentially equates to a 240watt heater! Wow, so this runs almost constantly, so another big battery drain to be aware of! It's on at the moment ignition is in first position, so something to be aware of if you sit listening to the radio a lot on the 2.8CRD with this setup!!

 

Anyway, after all this, I've wired it in direct and tried again and I'm still getting rough idling, cutting out at idle and hesitation, so it hasn't solved my problem (Also replaced fuel filter for good measure again).

 

So I'm onto more thinking :-(

 

I've got the specs for two sensors I'm going to test next, one is the intake air temperature sensor (Which is incorporated into the TC boost sensor, 4-wire jobby). The next is the MAF, again check readings, etc.

 

After that, must be injectors?

[mikebh8]

Thanks all.

And so it continues! So I've been tracking down the short to ground on the fuel heater wiring, I *think* it's where the wiring loom comes in from the passenger side wheel through into the cockpit behind the glovebox, but I didn't dismantle the dash far enough.

So, what I've done is located the wiring loom down the centre of the vehicle, identified the wiring colours from the IPM/fusebox and cut the wires towards the rear before it went back out to the pump assembly connector.

 

I've included photos so everyone else has reference if they ever need to trace cables/wiring looms!

 

Back of the IPM (remove battery, then the IPM flips up easily from a plastic clip) and the connector in question is the ORANGE almost dead centre here. Traced that to the relay switched positive side. (So from battery positive it goes to one side of the 20a fuse, other side of fuse goes to relay (omron 21911c) pin 87. Output of switched relay pin 30 goes to dark blue wire with orange stripe pin 2 on the orange connector at back of IPM.

 

http://cdn.chryslerforum.co.uk/public/style_images/defraction/attachicon.gifab-ipm1.jpg

 

So then follow that wiring loom, it goes into the wheel arch on passenger side, up and over and into the cockpit. I didn't identify that location, but that's my guess where the damage to the loom exists. That's my next job as my thinking is if that wire has shorted, another or others are next on the hit list!

 

Inside the car the loom then splits and either goes along the passenger door, passenger seat belt pillar, to rear door. Other part of the loom crosses somewhere under the passenger seat, into the middle duct of the car. So to access that, take the mount for the centre middle-row console out.

 

http://cdn.chryslerforum.co.uk/public/style_images/defraction/attachicon.gifab-centrewiring.jpg

You can see the black plastic cover for the duct. Unfortunately the break/split point is somewhere along the middle between the middle and rear seats, so as you can see I decided to cut the carpet to gain access.

 

http://cdn.chryslerforum.co.uk/public/style_images/defraction/attachicon.gifab-centrewiring2.jpg

 

And you can then lift up the plastic and gain access

 

http://cdn.chryslerforum.co.uk/public/style_images/defraction/attachicon.gifab-centrewiring3.jpg

 

You can see the rubber grommit where the cables that run down to the lift pump go, so that wiring plug carries: fuel heater, fuel lift pump, and water-in-diesel sensor. 6-way.

 

The connector underneath that plugs into the lift pump assembly is a 6-way, pin 1 (top left) is the heater pin (dark blue wire with orange stripe) and bottom right (pin6) is ground.

The fuel heater is approx 3ohms on mine, which @12v and 20amp potentially equates to a 240watt heater! Wow, so this runs almost constantly, so another big battery drain to be aware of! It's on at the moment ignition is in first position, so something to be aware of if you sit listening to the radio a lot on the 2.8CRD with this setup!!

 

Anyway, after all this, I've wired it in direct and tried again and I'm still getting rough idling, cutting out at idle and hesitation, so it hasn't solved my problem (Also replaced fuel filter for good measure again).

 

So I'm onto more thinking :-(

 

I've got the specs for two sensors I'm going to test next, one is the intake air temperature sensor (Which is incorporated into the TC boost sensor, 4-wire jobby). The next is the MAF, again check readings, etc.

 

After that, must be injectors?

Probably not related, at least I hope not, but I am working on a friend's car and the final diagnostic was chain timing (different car) not timed...it does exactly like that, very rough idle, no power, engine dies randomly and if the accelerator is pressed just a little bit it sounds a lot better.

One thing I noticed ,that even after 5 mins running, the engine block was very hot when on mine it takes minutes until you realise is wormed up.

As I said it may not be it but is something that can be easily checked.

Edited January 23, 2018 by mikebh8

[andyb2000]

Interesting thought mikebh8 but I've sort of discounted it as it's not all the time. For example yesterday and today temperatures above 4oC and it ran sweetly.

 

I've noticed, when it's unhappy and cold it runs lumpy, starting gives clouds of grey smoke (unburnt diesel type) and also whilst running/accelerating. On a good day, it starts without any smoke, same when running.

 

I'm leaning towards injectors so jobs this weekend are to do the injector leak-off test to see the results and also to test the air temperature sensor incorporated into the TC boost sensor.

[andyb2000]

I'm still plodding on, warmer weather and it runs great!

At the weekend I tested the diesel injectors for leak-off, all were about the same gently spotting which is what i'd expect, very little variance on them between all 4.

I've also tested the air temperature in the boost sensor and readings weren't what the factory spec stated, so I've ordered a replacement Bosch TC/temp sensor to replace it as a further thing to try. Other than that I'm really stumped on what else it could be!

 

@@Expoman Any change to your situation after the replacement?

[Expoman]

Hi Andy,

 

Going in this Thursday for replacement of the Fuel Filter, Housing and the wiring. He'll also replace the Lift Pump filter and check the housing for cracks, etc.

 

I had about 5 drives of the car with no failure then took it out about 10 days ago and it cut out 5 times, oddly three times in exactly the same location, a slight incline coming off a roundabout.

 

It was a warmer day, 14C plus sun so wondering if this is playing a role?

 

Anyway, we'll see later this week. I had my injectors replaced already, didn't help.

 

Fingers crossed!

[andyb2000]

Thanks @@Expoman interesting to know the injectors made no difference for you.

 

As a brief summary I think this is one of those faults that can have a handful of sources of the problem, hence never having a definitive answer to the problem.

 

I've just changed the MAP/TC sensor which on this is combined with a manifold temperature sensor. When I took the old one out it was pretty gunked up due to carbon (damn you EGR) so wouldn't be surprised if this wasn't giving accurate readings.

 

Probably not the root cause of my problems, but another item that won't be helping the matter.

 

 

 

[Expoman]

Andy, so far I have changed the Mass Air Filter (that made a difference, the car was immediately running smoother with better power delivery) - that was last May time followed by the injectors around October last year after the cutting out started so today she is in for the fuel filter plus housing and loom plus replacement of the lift pump filter and check of the housing so it's everything crossed. Between us, we'll soon have replaced everything!

 

I find it very interesting that out of say 12 cutouts, 5 have been on the exact same piece of road - an incline after a roundabout, car coasting, with my having lifted from the throttle going around the roundabout (which is downhill) then accelerating. The car never, ever, stalls when idling even when revved hard and there is no other discernible pattern to the circumstances surrounding the cutouts but to me they definitely seem fuel related but what do I know!!!

 

You can bet your life that I'll be back to that roundabout when I get the car back, fortunately it is 1 minute from my mechanic's workshop!

 

I'll get back when I have some news.