2.8Crd Cutting Out Above 2.5K Rpm

[andyb2000]

(Apologies for cross-post from the .com forum, wanted several sets of eyes on it!)

 

Well this one has finally hit me, first the basics.
2005 2.8CRD RHD at 130k miles.

It started to get worse at starting, bit of a feather on the accelerator and it usually fires, after the first long cold start it was better. Had replaced glow plugs a while back and confirmed they're working. Battery in good nick too, have tested and topped it regularly. So eliminates the low turnover, glow plug, cold starting usual potentials. At cold start it gives a cloud of greyish smoke. Have also checked, no oil in water or vice versa, nothing suggesting any issues with head, block, etc (Been there in past GV so know what to look for!).

Yesterday it really struggled to start (-1oC outside all day pretty much) as it was starting then immediately dying out. Bit more throttle and eventually it would start, then runs great, no issues.

Until this morning, again cold (-4oC and was cold all night long, so car stood on driveway), really struggled to start and when it started it sounded 'lumpy' almost as though not firing on all cylinders. Cloud of greyish smoke at start too. Drove away and after a few minutes the firing seemed to sort itself out and it sounded happy again.
Until about 5 minutes down the road, went to accelerate away from a roundabout (I'm not a heavy foot so I wasn't booting it) and it really spluttered, again like not on all cylinders (But don't think that was it) and then cut out. Rolled to side of road, tried to start and it turned over a few times until with feathering of throttle it started up.
Without load (Sat in park) I can hit the rev limiter at 2.5k and it sounded fine, no stutters or burbles or anything.
As soon as under load and you take it just above 2.5k it stutters struggles then cuts out, no matter what you do you can't 'regain' it after it does that.

So, sat on the driveway, tickling it to start it'll run, sound fine, I can rev it under no load and it's fine. Leave it to idle for a few minutes and you start to hear it 'seek' so revs drop a little then recover, does that a few times then drops too much and it stalls out.

So things I've done/checked:

* About 1yr ago changed the in-tank fuel filter. Mine is the 2.8CRD with the lift pump in the tank at the rear, changed the screw on filter on it, easy enough and filter wasn't too bad. So my suspicion is it's not that. (This is the Grand Voyager without front filter+primer)
* Low pressure lift pump runs at ignition turn on and primes the system, at least it sounds right
* glow plugs are on/working and pulling current, so not those
* P1130 showing many times on key dance - so it's fuel pressure related (makes sense)
* Pressure relief valve on fuel rail - Tested by disconnecting return pipe, seeing what run-off I get, and it's nothing, zero. So not that.
* Checked connector for fuel pressure sensor (on the common-rail towards the front), connector was ok, voltage ok

So questions on what it could be:

* Crank position sensor
* Fuel heater? (Didn't know anything about this, will check it!)
* Fuel pressure solenoid
* High pressure fuel pump
* Injectors (Though could all have failed/faulty?) - Going to do leak test again to verify.

Anyone any suggestions, I think I'm going to have to get it to a CRD specialist to test the high pressure side out to find out whats going on here.
But anything to help please guys would be appreciated.

 

[mikebh8]

Andy, so far I have changed the Mass Air Filter (that made a difference, the car was immediately running smoother with better power delivery) - that was last May time followed by the injectors around October last year after the cutting out started so today she is in for the fuel filter plus housing and loom plus replacement of the lift pump filter and check of the housing so it's everything crossed. Between us, we'll soon have replaced everything!

 

I find it very interesting that out of say 12 cutouts, 5 have been on the exact same piece of road - an incline after a roundabout, car coasting, with my having lifted from the throttle going around the roundabout (which is downhill) then accelerating. The car never, ever, stalls when idling even when revved hard and there is no other discernible pattern to the circumstances surrounding the cutouts but to me they definitely seem fuel related but what do I know!!!

 

You can bet your life that I'll be back to that roundabout when I get the car back, fortunately it is 1 minute from my mechanic's workshop!

 

I'll get back when I have some news.

It could be an electric fault, mine on some portions of the road it will lock the doors..even after going over 20-30 mph, I'm sure is a faulty wire somewhere bit didn't have the time.

[Expoman]

Well.the omens are good.

 

Started first turn of the key last evening when I collected her from the garage and, even more significantly, first turn this morning even though it is cold outside (well, as cold as it gets here!).

 

I took her straight to "Cut Out" roundabout and no problems whatsoever and she seemed to running more smoothly and evenly but, of course, we have to allow here for auto-sugguestion on my part!

 

So, cautious optimism, I'll take her for another run later on and I'll keep you all informed.

[Ornicar]

Hello Gentlemen!

I'm new on this forum. Sorry for my English with a lot of mistakes since I'm French living in South of France (North Vaucluse).

 

I face exactly the same problem as yours. My Grand Voyager 2.8crd 2006 cuts out when hard sollicitation. It's very dangerous.

I recently changed the fuel common rail without success. Yesterday, I checked injectors: each injector is leaking about 2 to 3 cl in 2 minutes. It seems to be not so bad. But, by doing this checking, I noticed that the pipe disconnected form the injectors, but connected to the high pressure pump for the return to the tank, was leaking a lot: about 0,5 l during 2 minutes. I wonder if it is normal.

As far I as know, there is no lift pump on this model. The fuel filter is in the motor bay.

 

What do you think about this leaking coming from the return direction?

 

Thanks a lot in advance for your observations.

[Expoman]

Hello Gentlemen!

I'm new on this forum. Sorry for my English with a lot of mistakes since I'm French living in South of France (North Vaucluse).

 

I face exactly the same problem as yours. My Grand Voyager 2.8crd 2006 cuts out when hard sollicitation. It's very dangerous.

I recently changed the fuel common rail without success. Yesterday, I checked injectors: each injector is leaking about 2 to 3 cl in 2 minutes. It seems to be not so bad. But, by doing this checking, I noticed that the pipe disconnected form the injectors, but connected to the high pressure pump for the return to the tank, was leaking a lot: about 0,5 l during 2 minutes. I wonder if it is normal.

As far I as know, there is no lift pump on this model. The fuel filter is in the motor bay.

 

What do you think about this leaking coming from the return direction?

 

Thanks a lot in advance for your observations.

Hi, I'm also in the south of France, just behind Cannes.

 

I just changed the fuel filter and the fuel filter housing and so far so good.

 

The old fuel filter housing had a membrane inside it that was damaged and we think that it was allowing air into the system.

[andyb2000]

Just wanted to post another follow-up, I'm still free of engine cutting out, but it still doesn't feel like it's running smoothly. So my summary of what's gone on:

 

• Filter change, ensuring housing is tight and seal correct - essential
• Running injector/diesel cleaner through the tank a few times - seems to improve things
• Fuel heater - unsure if this makes any difference at all!
• Replacing the MAP/TC sensor - this seems to have solved the issue for me

So for now, a cold start seems OK (Bit of a chug but starts generally first time with a cloud of smoke (unburnt diesel))

A warm start seems troublesome, it'll turn over and over without seeming to 'catch' or fire, but waggling the accelerator whilst turning it over and sometimes clicking the ignition on and off a couple of times will make it start.

I'm not 100% on the cause of that warm start problem at the moment, it also feels like it's running a little rough between the 2.5 and 3k revs area but not significantly. Idling is fine no stutters, power and acceleration are there (I can foot to floor and belt it up a hill without hesitation).

[frogland]

 

 

'The old fuel filter housing had a membrane inside it that was damaged and we think that it was allowing air into the system.

'

 

This is interesting,everyone who's had a faulty filter housing mention cracks and visual leaks and traces of diesel.

Mine looks fine from the outside how can i tell if the membrane in is knackered ?

Could a non return valve be put on the fuel line ?

[Expoman]

Delighted to say that mine is now running well, starts first time both cold and hot so the filter housing and filter change fixed the problem for me. I've done about 700 miles and a good few runs, short and long, with no problems at all.

 

frogland,  When the housing was off and the filter removed, I could see some distortion of the membrane and some fine cracks. Re NRV, I don't know, AndyB2000 would have a better idea on that.

[andyb2000]

Great, glad to hear it @@Expoman

That adds up to my thinking that this has a large list of problems that cause the same/similar symptoms hence being so tricky to pin down. I'm still getting bad starts so think there is more to be done so I'll get on with that in warmer weather.

 

Did a lot of driving today, snow and -2 temperatures and no problems though.

 

The non-return-valve idea was talked about, QinteQ mentioned it to me a few weeks back when we were having a catch up in his lads garage and sounds a sensible idea if you think that's the issue, though it's more of a sticking-plaster solution than finding the root cause.

 

 

Also, anyone in the UK know where to source the fuel filter (rear edition beside tank) assembly so I can order one as thinking it's worth doing at some point.

[QinteQ]

The microswitch on my X431 is goosed [have top get my solder station and USB microscope out this time] so I've has do get my MaxiDAS Pro back from AMERICANJohn in the Pool. Week tomorrow the7th Feb if you want M8.

[SJC]

Just wanted to post another follow-up, I'm still free of engine cutting out, but it still doesn't feel like it's running smoothly. So my summary of what's gone on:

 

• Filter change, ensuring housing is tight and seal correct - essential
• Running injector/diesel cleaner through the tank a few times - seems to improve things
• Fuel heater - unsure if this makes any difference at all!
• Replacing the MAP/TC sensor - this seems to have solved the issue for me

So for now, a cold start seems OK (Bit of a chug but starts generally first time with a cloud of smoke (unburnt diesel))

A warm start seems troublesome, it'll turn over and over without seeming to 'catch' or fire, but waggling the accelerator whilst turning it over and sometimes clicking the ignition on and off a couple of times will make it start.

I'm not 100% on the cause of that warm start problem at the moment, it also feels like it's running a little rough between the 2.5 and 3k revs area but not significantly. Idling is fine no stutters, power and acceleration are there (I can foot to floor and belt it up a hill without hesitation).

Hi AndyB2000,

Could you please tell me  a little bit more about what the MAP/TC is. What do those initials stand for? 

My car has only cut out once since having the injectors changed....but once is enough. I have done all of the things you mentioned except the MAP/TC.  Can you tell me what you know about this and how it might help prevent another cut out? Many thanks

Sam

[QinteQ]

Manifold absolute pressure sensor [MAP] as an alternative to the MAF type, both for injected car air flow measurement.

[andyb2000]

Yep, As QinteQ says, manifold pressure sensor combined with TC temperature sensor, both of these are critical for engine management control.

I'm unsure which of the two could have had the biggest impact, but based on the state of my sensor, neither could have been operating correctly.

It's a quick check, hex/allen key and pop it off, take a look, if it's crusted up then you might be able to clean it with brake cleaner,

see if it makes any difference.