At Last!

[Berkswolf]

Hi guys. I have been trying to join for some while but the validation email wasn't getting sent. Finaly arrived today so i can post at last.  I have a 65 plate grand voyager 2.8 CRDe Limited. I have had it for about thre weeks now and it has a very strange starting issue. Whether warm start or cold start it will seldom just start. It seems to fire but cuts out immediately. Turn off the ignition, wait about 15 seconds, turn it on and off it goes good as gold. Once started it runs beautifuly. I suspect some sort of air leak or fuel drain back and have now arranged to take to my local deisel specialists for diagnostics. I will post again when I have their report but in the meantime any input or suggestions will be very welcome.

[bignev]

Hi Berkswolf, if your 65 plate is correct I'd take it back under warranty mate.

[Berkswolf]

Hi Berkswolf, if your 65 plate is correct I'd take it back under warranty mate.

Ooops I meant 56 of course 

[gordy]

If your not having any issues regarding cutting out under load your injectors must be ok. Sounds like you have a little air in the fuel line. Try leaving ignition on a little longer before going for start and see if there's any difference. 

[Berkswolf]

Right lines gordy. The pressure test revealed a leak in a valve on the rail. Waiting to hear if my warrenty covers the work. I think it does.

[gordy]

Leakoff on bypass valve but no difficulty starting or cut out in powering, interesting, or is it a guess by the garage.

[Berkswolf]

Not quite Gordy. It has great difficulty starting. This can be alleviated by turning off the ignition, waiting about 15 seconds and then trying again. Sometimes it then runs at first try, sometimes I have to do the 15 seconds trick a second or third time. Still waiting fo the warrenty people to give the go ahead so no work been done yet beyond the pressure and diagnostic check. The garage I used then deduct the cost of the diagnostic checks if they then carry out the work.

[gordy]

So its a fuel pressure issue then but there's a "Y" junction here, either go the injectors and pressure regulator leaking past or the other branch is the fuel running back due to air getting into the system. One question, is it cutting out on powering.

[Berkswolf]

Not certain what you mean by powering. Once it has started it runs fine. No cut outs whilst driving, stopping, accelerating etc.  Warrenty company has now given the go ahead for the work to be done so I will be putting it in on Monday or Tuesday for the work to be done.

[gordy]

Powering as in Booting it, hard acceleration. This can give the answer. Good that garage is taking it over but we'll see.

[Berkswolf]

No problems on hard acceleration, not that I do it very much

[gordy]

Sounds like the well known on here fuel running back to tank due to air admission. But lets wait to see what they find.

[andyb2000]

I *think* this is what I have too, although doesn't sound as bad (yet) as you gordy.

Almost any time I go to start it I have to blip the accelerator pedal to get it to fire (or in the cold weather have to try a couple of times to start as it just splutters out). I get a little cloud of diesel smoke too after each start. (But no lack of power booting it or any other stalls, etc, purely at start)

 

I also suspected fuel running back due to a valve and seen a couple of posts regarding it but haven't found the time or the detailed test instructions to check it out and repair myself. So if anyone knows/has seen the specific steps I'd appreciate it (and will probably do a youtube video on it too for future!).

 

Hope they get yours sorted and if you don't mind, please post back with the parts list and work they did as I'd like to know what they found.

Edited June 13, 2016 by andyb2000

[Berkswolf]

I *think* this is what I have too, although doesn't sound as bad (yet) as you gordy.

Almost any time I go to start it I have to blip the accelerator pedal to get it to fire (or in the cold weather have to try a couple of times to start as it just splutters out). I get a little cloud of diesel smoke too after each start. (But no lack of power booting it or any other stalls, etc, purely at start)

 

I also suspected fuel running back due to a valve and seen a couple of posts regarding it but haven't found the time or the detailed test instructions to check it out and repair myself. So if anyone knows/has seen the specific steps I'd appreciate it (and will probably do a youtube video on it too for future!).

 

Hope they get yours sorted and if you don't mind, please post back with the parts list and work they did as I'd like to know what they found.

Hi  Andyb2000. I had the checks done at my local diesel specialists, I would guess you need specialist equipment to do it. The leak back test showed the injectors as ok. The fuel rail test showed the relief valve had failed. I don't think Chrysler sell the valve seperately, they want you to get a new fuel rail at around £1500! I think you can buy the valve direct from Bosch or on ebay. What is involved in replacing it is out of my knowledge range but I am sure someone like Quinteq or Gordy will know. They both seem very knowledgeable. My car goes in today and should be returned tomorrow. I will post later how things went.

[gordy]

Pressure relief valve has been replaced on here. Symptoms were poor starting. Injectors leaking and relief valve leaking cause slightly different issues that need understanding.

Re-issue my words: has been replaced on chryslerforum.com as I haven't traced back on here. Valve on fleebay right enough, looks just like a pressure valve, pressure in rail lifts the spring loaded piston in the valve. £56 odd quid, Bosch make, but I'm not sure where it goes as I don't see a relief fuel pipe on the rail...

Edited June 14, 2016 by gordy

[QinteQ]

- see here, the diesel workshop manual [schema] is here, best of luck.

[gordy]

Yes I've got the manual in here somewhere but got it again with proper heading. Still can't find the relief limiter valve in the manual but there is a fuel rail return line indicated. There's a flow back valve but that's on the injector spill line. Interest in the Air Purge Valve on the HP Pump for removing air in LP pipes. Oh and any injector that has a spill return rate above 25ml/min at idle should be replaced. Looks like its a looksee for this relief valve then...

[Berkswolf]

Ok, got the car back today and so far, so good. Only had to do three starts so far so not a real  try but up to now its been perfect, It will be more of a test in the morning after standing all night, but the symptoms I had were there whether the engine was warm or cold. Gordy, I think the reason the valve doesn't show on the schematic is because Chrysler dont supply the valve on its own, you have to buy the complete rail from them. The garage didn't do the refurb on the rail themselves as it apparently needs to be tested at a ridiculously high presure and they don't have the equipment capable of doing it so they send it out to a third party that does. The valve, which is made by Bosch can be found for sale on ebay, but as all things ebay they may, or may not be actual Bosch valves. The engineer told me he has done dozens of these and according to him its quite common for them to fail. Not only on Grand Voyagers but other vehicles that use the same engine. A new rail from Chrysler costs around £1500 plus VAT. The cost of therail refurb, including new valve and pressure testing was £350. The garage charged for just one hour labour costs plus £22 for a new fuel filter as obviously you wouldn't want to put back an old one. I had to pay for the fuel filter as my warrenty doesn't cover service parts, the warrenty company paid the rest of the costs minus the original diagnostic as again its not covered by the agreement. I will post again in a few days and again in a few weeks to report if all is well, or not. But as I said, so far so good.

[gordy]

Yes give it the boot tomorrow to check the pressure is there. And here's the valve fitted on the end of the Fuel Rail, one with the Yellow sticker on it. Other picture is the Air Purge Valve I've never heard about, it's behind the Alternator.

[Berkswolf]

Well a week in and all is good. Starts first time every time, runs smoothly at all revs and it all feels a little zippier. If zippy is an expression that can be used in a vehicle of this size. Not certain yet as I haven't done a calculated check yet and don't really trust the fuel computer, but I am fairly sure that fuel consumption is better too. All in all I am very happy.

[gordy]

Good to know that Berkswolf and the bit about the garage guy saying they commonly fail, is of interest to us regarding fuel rail loss of pressure. Loss or lower, anyway out of parameter as to what ECU expects.

[QinteQ]

Trust in the 'fuel computer' is a different issue. It is either ± what % since you had it done. Congrats on getting it sorted Berkswolf.